In The Days

Linda says Comment posted on April 24th, 2008

In Christ Jesus name, I pray for the will of the G-D of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob to be done in Israel as it is in heaven.

Ernest Gregoire says Comment posted on April 25th, 2008

Maybe the Syrians would take Olmert in lieu of the Golan Heights.

Steve says Comment posted on April 25th, 2008

Olmert must have gone to the Jimmy Carter school peace, give your enimies your stratigic locations to control and information so they can screw you over, cut off your supplies and kill your people when trouble breaks out. Then when you leave your posistion you can go meet with people who want you and your people dead and say it is for peace

Matthew Wilcoxen says Comment posted on April 28th, 2008

Praise God that there might be peace…Before everyone starts condemning Olmert, we should remember the words of our Lord Jesus when he said “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.”

Also, we have to remember that the New Testament says nearly nothing about “the land.” Instead, all the physical promises to Israel become transmuted into a greater promise: the promise of God in Christ (‘Immanuel’).

Christians in the United States are one of the main reasons that we don’t have peace in Israel/Palestine. We are actively supporting policies that keep over 3.5 million people living in squalor. May God change our hearts. If we don’t begin to treat the Palestinians better, we will not be able to fulfill our ‘ministry of reconciliation’ in the Muslim world.

Let’s stop worrying about ‘the land’ and start worrying about the gospel!!!

jen-o says Comment posted on April 29th, 2008

matthew,

false peace is NO peace…

you do know that the anti-christ will promise the world “peace”, too; don’t you??… the anti-christ is going to look like a great “peacemaker” (and certainly you don’t think that the anti-christ will be called a “son of God”, do you??)

you sound like you subscribe to replacement theology, do you??

and please tell me how we (as americans) are mistreating the “palestinians”??

i look forward to your responses…

thank you,
jen-o

jen-o says Comment posted on April 30th, 2008

correction:

that last questions should have been:
please tell me how we (as american CHRISTIANS) are mistreating the palestinians??
(since your claim is that christians in the u.s. are to blame for the lack of peace in israel/”palestine”)

Matthew Wilcoxen says Comment posted on April 30th, 2008

Jen,

First of all, the notion that a negotiated peace with Syria would necessarily by a “false peace” is unsubstantiated. You are assuming that the Syrians are somehow ontologically incapable of being at peace with the Israelis. That is untrue; they are capable of being at peace.

As far as the “Anti-Christ” bringing peace, I would ask you to show me where the Bible says that he will bring peace. If you are speaking of 1 Thessalonians 5:3, that isn’t really going to cut the mustard. Nowhere in the passage do we read of the “Anti-Christ.”

Ironically enough, another passage that is a favorite of those who love to live in eschatological fervor is Matthew 24. In this passage it says that the sign of Jesus’ coming is that we will “hear of wars and rumors of wars.”

Linda, which is it? Will we hear of wars and more wars or will we hear of peace and safety? The Left-Behind interpretation of eschatology has left us in a scizhoprhenic confusion. I don’t fault you for this, Linda. It is all that most of us have been taught. I would only say: don’t be afraid to question the paradigm of your eschatology. If it is true, it will withstand the test of your own questioning and searching. Subscribe to the doctrine of the Reformers: Sola Scriptura.

As far as the term “replacement theology,” it has little or no meaning to me. Could you explain what you mean?

I will say this: there is only one people of God. Not two. God does have a plan for ethnic Israel, this seems clear enough. However, his plan is to bring them into the church (see Rom 9-11).

And you also asked, how are we mistreating the “palestinians”? Well, the first thing you are doing is treating them as subhuman by not recognizing them as people with a legitimate homeland. Take those quotation marks off, please!

American Christians have, for years, continued to support the Israelis in not recognizing the Palestinian people as a legitimate people with legitimate rights. We have acted as if the Jews were a “people with out a land” who entered a “land without a people.” That is not true; there were hundreds of thousands, and probably over a million, Arabs living in the land of Palestine before the Jews arrived. Do you seriously think that there was no one there? That is completely erroneous. If you are like most Zionists you will only be able to quote some errant Mark Twain vignette in support of your claim.

There are 3.5 million Palestinians who are living in dire squalor because of the policies of the Israeli government and, in turn, those who support them. I should know; I lived in Israel for 6 months, working at a Zionist humanitarian aid organization.

I know what you’ll say: they’re terrorists! Maybe, but are you willing to lump the American revolutionaries in with the “terrorists”? Are you willing to lump the ‘Hagannah’ and ‘Ergun’ fighters in with the “terrorists”? These two groups were the ‘freedom fighters’ of the nascent Jewish state.

If these two groups are not “terrorists,” then how can you describe the Palestinians as terrorists?

Al Qaeda, yes, they are terrorists. The Palestinians, I’m not so sure.

remnant says Comment posted on May 01st, 2008

If you divide the amount of money that the oppressive united states has given the “palestinian’s” this year alone by the number of palestinian’s residing in gaza and the west bank you will find that we have given them enough money to make each one a millionaire. Their leaders and brother arabs have kept them in the squalor which they live in, Israel has gone above and beyond what any country would do in giving medical support and care to people who have voted hamas into power.

Israel left Gaza and left the green houses and industries behind the poor “palestinian’s ” trashed these same industries with in days of their taking over. In doing so they destroyed a vast income generating potential that was given to them.

Matt you don’t seem to be sure of much except the ridiculous tripe you spout off every time you post on this site.

You don’t understand replacement theology but can spout off the paradigm’s of your eschatology. You continue to promote the social gospel of the Kingdom now doctrine.

If you don’t understand these terms or they don’t mean much to you, I suggest you look them up. By all means go with Sola Scriptura in the proper sense, but don’t use it to manipulate the teachings of the reformers, their views were as gnostic as the false church they broke from. They got 3 things right and that was it.

Salvation by Grace alone, Sola Scriptura, and that the Catholic Church was apostate in it’s practices. Many of their other doctrines and theologies were just as heretical as the Catholic Church. Relying upon the gnosticism of Augustine and Origen Adamantius of the School of Alexandria both of whom influenced Constantine in creating what was to become Catholicism.

Having read many of your views, I suggest you leave the ministry, and join Jimmy Catrer in his Habitat for Hamas program.

In Messiah
Remnant

Matthew Wilcoxen says Comment posted on May 01st, 2008

Remnant,

You don’t think that there is any call in the gospel for us to do “good works” like feed the poor, house the hungry, and help the fatherless? Aren’t we supposed to represent the down-trodden, whom God cares so deeply about?

Aren’t these “good works” something which enhance and make possible our ministry of preaching the gospel? That seems to be what Jesus was saying when he said “let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.”

As for your suggestions about my theological viewpoints and place in ministry; thanks for your two cents. May God bless you, too.

Matt

jen-o says Comment posted on May 01st, 2008

LOL, remnant… well, you never were one to mince words… :~)

in this wishy-washy, laodicean era, YOU are a breath of fresh air! :~D

shalom,
your sister in Messiah,
jen-o

Remnant says Comment posted on May 01st, 2008

Matthew

Works are the result of the unction of the Holy Spirit and if not led by the Holy Spirit in doing them they are just works, and glorify only the person doing them, works led by the Spirit glorify G_D. What we do as believers is quite different from what some do as conditional to being a “believer” .

Your posts expound the philosophy of The likes of R.C. Sproll and his erroneous preterist views that all the events of listed in revelation were fulfilled during the period of the Roman empire. Reformed theology erroneously believes that the Church replaced Israel and the new covenant is with the gentile church. Nothing is further from the truth. Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

G_D has never made a covenant with the Gentiles we are grafted in and we can also be removed. Read Romans 11.

Let me make this as plain as I can.

Israel has bent over backwards to bring peace and dignity to to the Arabs living in the Gaza, west bank and through out Israel itself. The treaties signed have been broken over and over again by the descendants of Ishmael.

The profiles of Arafat, Abbas and even Syrian President Bashar Assad are those of terrorists. And yes while they are theoretically capable of being at peace with the Israelis. IT is the Quran that States that they are to kill the Saturday worshipers first and the Sunday worshipers second. The can be no peace According to the Quran) until there is world wide dominion by the subscribers of Islam. The arabs in Syria and Gaza and the West Bank are subscribers to this doctrine.

The position of the “Palestinian’” is that they are the descendants of the Philistines, Sola Scriptura says the Philistines lived in 5 coastal towns in Gaza and more importantly were were conquered and destroyed way before the Romans chose to rename Israel and Judah as Palestine. More over Sola Scriptura will also show that the original name for this land was Canaan.

I suggest you read the Balfor agreement as well as the U.N.s original grant of The land of Israel to the Israelites. The is enough documentation that exists to show who this land belongs to. As to those poor refugees being treated as subhuman it has been their arab brothers in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria that has kept these people in camps. and in poverty.

“Two years ago the Israeli government withdrew, fully, from the Gaza strip. No one is “occupying” their land. So, why in the world does the Hamas government in Gaza rain southern Israeli cities day in and day out with homemade “Qassam” rockets in the hope of actually hitting something and killing as many Israeli civilians as possible? Why is it when the Israel army retaliates with precision hits on enemy targets and, if by chance, a Palestinian civilian is accidentally killed (by the way the Israeli govt. apologizes for any innocent deaths) the whole world is upside down. Most people in the world don’t even know that rockets are falling daily into Israel territory – it’s become, unfortunately, the “norm”, like a road accident. It’s difficult to shoot at an enemy that uses innocent civilians as a shield. The Israeli govt. has set a number of sanctions against the Hamas govt. ruling Gaza by preventing petrol and other items from entering Gaza and even (this should teach them a lesson) cutting off their electricity for 2 hours each night. So now the world gets on Israel for preventing “humanitarian” aid from entering Gaza and continuing the practice of “collective punishment” on the Palestinian people.” (Ronnie Cohen)

“Now, to get on the “good side” of the UN and many other nations, this is what has been happening;

1. The Israeli govt. has allowed the Russians to provide the PA (Palestinian Authority) to receive 300 armored vehicles in West Bank cities.

2. The U.S govt. is now training a brigade of Palestinian “Special Forces” in Jordan to be later dispersed in the West Bank.

3. The Israeli govt. has been “convinced” to rearm the PA so that they can encounter any hostile force (supposedly Hamas)

4. A number of Israeli roadblocks on many roads in the West Bank have been dismantled so that the Palestinians can travel more freely and we won’t be “hurting” their feelings while being checked.

So far, in the last 2 weeks, the crossing where humanitarian aid enters Gaza has been attacked twice by Hamas gunmen resulting in Israeli deaths; they’ve fired a number of times with Qassam rockets at the electrical generators in Ashkalon which, by the way, provides electricity for Gaza.”(Ronnie Cohen)

Matthew I urge you to study the history of the Middle East and not believe what the press says about the causes and effects. Do diligent research and you will find what I found that I had been lied to as to the causes of the sub humanization of arabs, done by their brothers. And who has willingly sacrificed everything for peace You will find it is not the Arabs.

I urge you to apply Sola Scriptura to yourself and stop reading and listening to the opinions of snake charmers like Sproll who use big words and talks a lot but lead you in circles and really says nothing.

There now you have another two cents worth. Spend it wisely!

In Messiah
Remnant

Matthew Wilcoxen says Comment posted on May 02nd, 2008

Remnant,

I attended the church of John Higgins for some 4 years.

I’ve been to Israel twice and lived there for 6 months.

I’ve got a degree in biblical studies.

If you’d like to have an exegetical debate over what the proper Christian position is, let’s do it via email. matthew.a.wilcoxen@biola.edu

I’d love to hear from you, if it is in the context of friendly Christian debate and not snarky rhetoric.

In Christ,

Matt

Linda says Comment posted on May 02nd, 2008

Remnant,
As always, thank you for cutting through all the rhetoric of the liberal media & putting all the facts out on the table.
Linda

jen-o says Comment posted on May 03rd, 2008

matthew,

personally, i would like to hear what you think a “proper christian position” is…

and i would think that if you really believed in your “position” and could support it (with facts, logic, and biblical doctrine), then you would not mind answering the points that remnant made in a public forum…

just because you attended a certain church, lived in israel briefly, or have a certain degree does NOT mean that your “position” is correct…

i am not sure why you are unwilling to discuss this publically….

shalom,
jen-o

Matthew Wilcoxen says Comment posted on May 03rd, 2008

Jen-O,

If you’ll read through Remnant’s last post, you’ll see he didn’t bring up any biblical arguments. He simply brought up historical and political issues. The closest he got to anything biblical was the injunction to “read Romans 11.”

I am willing to talk about issues of what the Bible says:

1. Where does the New Testament say anything about “the land” being such a central point of Christian theology?

2. As I asked you before, where does the Bible say that the Anti-Christ will be a man who brings peace? Further, doesn’t it say that the end-times will be all about “wars and rumors of wars”? So what should we be worried about: peace or war?

3. What do you do with books like Isaiah that have long passages about God casting the Israelites out of their land for their unbelief and sin? Why don’t we apply these passages to Israel now, since they are an extremely secular nation as a whole? (see Isaiah ch. 1 as just one example of this type of judgment).

4. Romans 11 speaks of ONE olive tree; why then do you and remnant have a theology that speaks of TWO peoples of God (Christians and Jews)? Paul’s theology in Romans 11 shows God bringing the Gentiles into the tree of faith and taking the Jews out. Doesn’t that seem inconsistent with your view of the people(s) of God?

5. I’ve already cited numerous passages throughout Scripture that are clear injunctions to the Jews (and by extension now to us Christians) to treat the poor with compassion and to kindly and generously harbor the ‘stranger’ (alien) in “the land” (see, for instance, Jer. 22:3, Micah 6:8). On this basis, how can we not be more concerned to see the Palestinians have peace and autonomy and a homeland that is economically viable? How come we do not encourage Israel to care about this issue? I’m not saying give up on Israeli security, for that would be injust, but we should make sure that both sides compromise in order to live in peace.

So, as you can see, I’m perfectly willing to engage in a public forum. Unfortunately, my last comment was edited and it came off as much more arrogant than it would have been had my full comment been allowed to stand.

Also, there is a certain point where things get very caustic and heated when they are in a public forum. Ofttimes if one takes the discussion to the one-on-one level, things are much more amiable. I’m just trying to preserve some semblance of Christian unity. Hope that helps and I’d love to hear yours or Remnant’s [biblical] response to any of the five points above. I would then be glad to respond in turn.

In Christ,

Matt

Dave Lucas says Comment posted on May 04th, 2008

How is it that there is not one instance in the NT of a believer using violence against another human being? Please do not throw out Peter in the garden. He did not have the HS at that time and Jesus also rebuked him. How is it that today’s version of Christianity believes that violence will bring about the peace of God?

Matthew Wilcoxen says Comment posted on May 06th, 2008

No response?

Remnant says Comment posted on May 06th, 2008

Hey Dave

Long time no hear, Is your, e-mail address the same? I think of you occasionally and have kept you in my prayers. Hope all is well but I do wonder why you have made this comment to this thread. No one here has mentioned swords, guns, nukes,fist fighting or slam dancing.

And though mistreatment has been mentioned, it has not advocated by anyone.

By the way I found out that in Baltimore MD it is against the law to mistreat an oyster. I wonder how one mistreats something like an oyster? It is certainly permissible to eat said oyster. That in mind I do not want to be misunderstood and accused of advocating the eating of any “palestinians” or any other human being!

Love you my Brother

Remnant

Remnant says Comment posted on May 06th, 2008

Dear Matthew

Pertaining to your post of April 28th, 2008

The land belonging to Israel and the importance placed upon it.

I refer you to the following.

Gen. 12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen. 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

[G_D commanded Abraham to leave Iraq and Ur and lead him to the land of Cannon. ]

Gen. 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

[G_D planned for all people on the earth who stood with Abraham, Isaac and their decendants to be blessed.]

Gen. 15:8 And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

[Abram asks for assurance from G_D of His promise]

Gen. 15:9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
Gen. 15:10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
Gen. 15:11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
Gen. 15:12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
Gen. 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Gen. 15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
Gen. 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
Gen. 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Gen. 15:17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
Gen. 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

[This is the Abrahamic covenant : Notice that G_D did all the talking and made the covenant. Abraham slept. If G_D made it G_D will keep it.]

(covenant::a usually formal, solemn, and binding agreement)

Gen. 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

[The key word here is everlasting: meaning lasting or enduring through all time : eternal]

Gen. 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Two key words [everlasting: (see the above definition) and posession: 1 a: the act of having or taking into control b: control or occupancy of property without regard to ownership c: ownership d: control of the ball or puck; also : an instance of having such control (as in football) 2: something owned, occupied, or controlled

Gen. 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

Gen. 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

[an everlasting covenant to his (Isaac’s) seed after him which was Jacob who became Israel.]

Psa. 105:7 He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
Psa. 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
Psa. 105:9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
Psa. 105:10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
Psa. 105:11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:

[No mention of palistine here]

Zech. 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zech. 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zech. 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

[I woulld caution all nations and peoples who side against Israel}

Zech. 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

[G_D is not through with Israel The Jews will recognize the messiah.]

Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

[No mention of palistine and or Rome or the United States, or any church or group of gentiles either. here either].

You seem to believe that the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament, where in the Bible does it state this?

If we don’t begin to treat the “palestinians” better, we will not be able to fulfill our ‘ministry of reconciliation’ in the Muslim world.

[My wife and I had a ministry that was to both Muslim and Jews, our position on Israel never stopped us from witnessing to either or from them hearing it.

You continue to believe that we mistreat the “palestinians” when in fact we have given them millions of dollars, in cash and humanitarian aid. Much of which ended up in the swiss bank accounts of their leaders. The rest used to purchase weapons to be used against Israel.

As I have stated before it is their arab brothers that continue to force their brother “palestinians”
to live in the squallor of the camps and the elected officals in Gaza who have brought these subhuman conditions to the residents.

The biblical description of Ishmael seem to fit rather nicely “And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”—Genesis 16:12

Does your demonizing Israel in order to promote the gospel serve a purpose?]

On to your post of April 30th, 2008

study the The 70 weeks of Daniel and there meaning for today.

Also as to your question to Linda

“wars and rumors of wars”, this refers to the second coming of the Lord on earth

1Th. 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th. 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th. 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th. 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
This refurs to the rapture not to the secnd coming

Replacement theology, Holds to the belief that G_D is done with the Jews and that all the promises made to the Jews and now given to the Gentile Church and in some extreme views that the the church is now Israel.

According to the U.N. in 1947 the country of Trans-Jordan was to be the home of the “palestinians”. Jude itself has stated at different times that it is Palestine.

In 1947 the arabs living in The newly formed state of Israel were told by their Arab brothers to leave Israel and join them in a war of annihilation against the Jews. These Arab brothers told them they could return when they had victory and the nation of Israel was destroyed, At the same time, the government of Israel was on the radio asking those same arabs to stay in their homes they would not be required to fight other arabs just to stay in their houses and They would be ok. Those who chose to leave and meet their brothers on the border were later placed into the camps. In Jude, Lebanon, and Syria. where they have remained ever since. These countries could have absorbed these people but instead kept them in camps to use the as pawns.

American revolutionaries did not blow up and attack women and children. the did not hide behind their own women and children. I believe that makes a big difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist.

Your post on May 01st, 2008 was answered by my post on May 01st, 2008

Before going any further allow me to answer some of your childish statements in you post of May 02nd 2008

“I attended the church of John Higgins for some 4 years.”

[It is quite obvious that you you did not learn any thing in your attending.]

“I’ve been to Israel twice and lived there for 6 months.”

[I lived in Philadelphia for many years and go back as often as I can I believe that this makes me an expert of Philadelphia cheese steaks]

“I’ve got a degree in biblical studies”

[Sounds like an ego thing to me , and could be your biggest problem. ]

I don’t mind having an exegetical debate over what the proper Christian position. but I am afraid that from the above comments. you would hold your breath and turn blue if I did not agree with you.

You have managed to throw some snarky remarks at others here.

Now on to your comments posted on May 03rd, 2008

1. Where does the New Testament say anything about “the land” being such a central point of Christian theology? [I have answer this biblically]

[Matthew you only want people to use the new testament to deal with the positions you hold. Gee when Yeshua and his students were around I’m sure this document helped them quite a bit . I don’t believe that I ever heard Jesus referring to the new testament in all his teachings.]

2. As I asked you before, where does the Bible say that the Anti-Christ will be a man who brings peace? Further, doesn’t it say that the end-times will be all about “wars and rumors of wars”? So what should we be worried about: peace or war? [This was also answered]

3. What do you do with books like Isaiah that have long passages about God casting the Israelites out of their land for their unbelief and sin? Why don’t we apply these passages to Israel now, since they are an extremely secular nation as a whole? (see Isaiah ch. 1 as just one example of this type of judgment).

[God has judged Israel in the past and removed them from the land but has always returned them.]

Just for starters:

Is. 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Is. 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Is. 45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
Is. 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Is. 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Is. 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Is. 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Is. 45:25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Is. 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
Is. 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
Is. 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
Is. 43:4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
Is. 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
Is. 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
Is. 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
Is. 43:8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
Is. 43:9 Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
Is. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

It is the government that is extremely secular, the Jews are in the land not out of it and more are returning home to it each day, the events lining up with biblical prophecy lead me to conclude that we are in those end times. Also it is not for me to utter against Israel. I take Gen. 12:3 very seriously.

4. Romans 11 speaks of ONE olive tree; why then do you and remnant have a theology that speaks of TWO peoples of God (Christians and Jews)? Paul’s theology in Romans 11 shows God bringing the Gentiles into the tree of faith and taking the Jews out. Doesn’t that seem inconsistent with your view of the people(s) of God?

I do not have a theology of two peoples nor do I subscribe to a dual covenant theology (As you did not understand replacement theology I will describe dual covenant briefly. Dual covenant states that The Jews have their way to salvation through Talmudic Judaism, and the gentiles have their way through repentance unto Christ and that both are valid and we need not witness to the Jews.)

The Two olive trees: The saved Gentiles are graffed in. To graff, one must remove a limb from one tree and graff in into another. Reason would show there must be more that one tree. The tree is the covenant jews who do not believe are removed and the heathen gentiles that come to salvation are removed from the tree of unbelief and graffed into the tree of covenant or salvation. We are warned not to get to proud about this as G_D can replace a limb that has been removed If it comes to faith. That is why witnessing to the Jews is so Important.

5. I’ve already cited numerous passages throughout Scripture that are clear injunctions to the Jews (and by extension now to us Christians) to treat the poor with compassion and to kindly and generously harbor the ’stranger’ (alien) in “the land” (see, for instance, Jer. 22:3, Micah 6:8). On this basis, how can we not be more concerned to see the Palestinians have peace and autonomy and a homeland that is economically viable? How come we do not encourage Israel to care about this issue? I’m not saying give up on Israeli security, for that would be unjust, but we should make sure that both sides compromise in order to live in peace.

[ gee now you want to use the Old Testament: As I stated on May 1st,

Works are the result of the unction of the Holy Spirit and if not led by the Holy Spirit in doing them they are just works, and glorify only the person doing them, works led by the Spirit glorify G_D. What we do as believers is quite different from what some do as conditional to being a “believer”.

Yes we should treat people with kindness, but should we do so at the expense of others. I believe that Israel has offered more and compromised when The Arabs have refused to compromise at all. They are always taking and never giving and then wanting more. They have never upheld their part in any bargain or treaty they have made.

The Arab countries that have offered financial support of those in Gaza are now having to be pressured by the international community to uphold their promise. The Arab countries and the Arabs have the media attention and are using it to make the world believe the most outlandish lies. Lets force Jordan to do what it was created for, to be a country for those claiming to be “palestinians”.

Anything else is unrealistic.]

As I stated in my e-mail earlier to you I have limited access to the internet at this time, You had suggested that we take this off line. I did contact you and said that I had no real interest in doing so. I have long since retired from tiptoeing through calvin’s TULIP.

Imagine to my surprise that upon returning to my home and accessing the computer and internet and finding that , you are still talking about me and my posts, upon In The Days. This shows the lack of integrity one such as yourself has! You also e-mailed me several days after I e-mailed you with your questions and mentioned In The Days. This shows me you don’t read your own mail.

Please do not contact me again the Lord tells me to Love you but I do not and don’t have to like you.

In Messiah
Remnant

Remnant says Comment posted on May 06th, 2008

correction in the above statement

According to the U.N. in 1947 the country of Trans-Jordan was to be the home of the “palestinians”. Jude itself has stated at different times that it is Palestine.

Jude should be Jordan

Sorry

in Messiah

jen-o says Comment posted on May 06th, 2008

matt,

i haven’t been to this site in a couple of days… so i did not see your post until just now…

i do want to let you know that i understand what you are saying, and i also want to respond to your questions (which are quite a few) LOL… however, i can’t do that justice right now because it is very late, and i’m exhausted (need to get some sleep) :~)

just wanted to let you know that i saw your post, and i will try to get back here 2morrow to respond to your questions…

shalom,
jen-o

Linda says Comment posted on May 07th, 2008

Good Morning Everyone!!

This is a day that the LORD has made, let us be glad & rejoice in it!!

I am a simple thinker (as you all know by now )
I thought this past Sunday’s service at Calvary Tri-City with Mr. Koenig was very informative & I think alot of the above mentioned points were covered with Biblical verses. Maybe the editors here at ITD’s might be able to make it available for ITD readers.

Non-believers that follow this site love nothing more than to see believers in our precious LORD go at each other (kinda like the muslims’ dancing & laughing after the 9-11 attack)

Peace be with you all!

Linda

Linda says Comment posted on May 07th, 2008

Remnant,

I want to thank you for taking the time to address all these issues with the Truth of G-D’s Word. In addition to myself, I am sure there are many other readers out there who appreciate you sharing with us your vast knowledge of the Word; how It applies to today’s issues; and the “history” of “currect affairs of that day in time” and how it related to
G-D’s Word.

You currently have a “full plate” & it is greatly appreciated that you took the time to help us all understand these issues.

And, after all this effort, I am sure there will still be those who say “huh?”.

Linda

Linda says Comment posted on May 07th, 2008

G-D’s feelings on the matter:

Isaiah 62 KJV
Isa 62:1For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp [that] burneth.
Isa 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.
Isa 62:3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.
Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
Isa 62:5 For [as] a young man marrieth a virgin, [so] shall thy sons marry thee: and [as] the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, [so] shall thy God rejoice over thee.
Isa 62:6 ¶ I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, [which] shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,
Isa 62:7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
Isa 62:8 The LORD hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn [to be] meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:
Isa 62:9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the LORD; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness.
Isa 62:10 ¶ Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.
Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward [is] with him, and his work before him.
Isa 62:12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

The Almighty G-D, Sovereign Ruler of the universe declares “as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, [so] shall thy God rejoice over thee.”
(verse 5) I guess that clears up how HE feels about Israel!

and,

Psa 89:23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
Psa 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy [shall be] with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
Psa 89:25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
Psa 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou [art] my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
Psa 89:27 Also I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
Psa 89:28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
Psa 89:29 His seed also will I make [to endure] for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
Psa 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
Psa 89:31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
Psa 89:32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Psa 89:33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
Psa 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
Psa 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
Psa 89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
Psa 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

G-D says: “Selah”, which means “think about it”, so I suggest we do. Verses 33-37 say no matter what they do, “My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.”

WE MUST NEVER FORGET GEN 12:3 to do so will prove fatal.

Matthew Wilcoxen says Comment posted on May 07th, 2008

One thing,

If you read through my comments, I’ve never said anything to “demonize Israel.” I’m pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian. I think that the situation presents us with quite a conundrum and the best thing for us to do, is to pursue peace and justice for both sides.

Christians should be deeply saddened by BOTH Palestinian suicide bombers AND Israeli bulldozing of Palestinian homes.

We should be sad that people live without the peace and reconciliation of God, and without peace and reconciliation with their neighbor.

Remnant and Linda have good arguments when their hermeneutic does not include Jesus. But if you factor into the equation this presupposition from the New Testament that Jesus Christ fulfills ALL the Law and the Prophets, then things change. They must.

Think about this: most of you would agree that the temple is fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Most of you would agree that animal sacrifices are fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Most of you would agree that the priesthood was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Most of you would agree that the office of the Scripture-writing prophet was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. You would agree with Matt. 5:17 Jesus came not to abolish, but to fulfill the law. You would also agree that Jesus fulfills the Davidic kingship.

The list goes on and on…

But, somehow, you don’t think that Jesus fulfills the land promises…it is just curious to me.

And I wasn’t trying to say “I’m great…I went to John Higgins’ church.” I was merely trying to say that I know the Zionist arguments just as well as you do.

-Matt

Remnant says Comment posted on May 07th, 2008

Hey Linda

Thanks for adding those other verses. I ran out of time and energy before I could get to them and several other things, As you know my plate at this time is full and may be getting fuller.

In Messiah
Remnant

jen-o says Comment posted on May 08th, 2008

wow… i feel like i’m on a time lag… LOL
by the time i get back here to answer matt’s questions, they’ve all been answered! :~D …and very thoroughly, i might add… thanks to the very knowledgeable remnant (and linda)… :~D

i, for one, am very glad that the discussion continued online… :~)
this is the kind of information that should be put in a public forum for all to see….. because there are many, many christians who subscribe to replacement theology… and who side with the cause of the “palestinians”… [btw, i will not take the quotation marks off of the term “palestinians” because there is no such thing as a “palestinian”…

israelite rule in the land of israel started with Joshua’s conquests circa 1250 BC… from 587 BC onward, the region came under the control of various empires (babylon, persia, greece, rome)… the resident jewish population was virtually destroyed by the romans who renamed judea “palestinia” in order to eradicate all signs of jewish identification with the area… (it is believed the word “palestine” is derived from the philistines)… there has always been a jewish presence living in the area… and there has never been a country called “palestine” governed by “palestinians”… for hundreds of years the region known as “palestine” was a neglected area of deserts and swamps…

fast forward… the arab decision to invade the newly created state of israel in 1948 caused the refugee problem (as remnant has previously explained)… the arab states could have absorbed these refugees, so why didn’t they??… that is the million dollar question… they didn’t because they reject israel’s right to exist and the refugee problem helps to foster hatred against israel… (the biblical description of ishmael is accurate)… between 1948 and 1967, the “palestinian” arabs living in the west bank and gaza were governed by jordan and egypt respectively… the “palestinians” never demanded independence from jordan and egypt and no effort was made to create a palestinian state at THAT time… why is this?? (these are the kinds of questions a person needs to ask themselves)

in 1922, the palestine mandate was divided into 2 districts (east and west)… in 1946, the eastern district became jordan! (this WAS the original palestinian-arab state)… but in 1947, the u.n. voted to FURTHER divide the western part into a jewish and an arab state… however, the arabs REJECTED it! (now why is that??)… perhaps because they REJECT the right of israel to exist!… on the day that israel declared its independence, the countries of lebanon, syria, jordan, egypt, and iraq invaded israel with the declared intent of DESTROYING it… about 720,000 arabs left israel to fight against it while 600,000 jews fled from various arab countries to seek refuge in israel… (a pretty fair swap, i’d say)… israel absorbed those jews so why didn’t the arab nations absorb their own??… instead, they were kept in camps (to this day) so that the arabs can use them as political pawns…

israel is NOT the cause of the refugee problem… and NEITHER are american christians!… the arabs don’t want peace… they want to eradicate israel!

i do not think the situation presents a conundrum at all… it’s a spiritual battle, and satan wants to take out israel (which of course, he will never succeed at)…

btw, “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes (romans 10:4)… just because Jesus is the end of the law (for righteousness) and has fulfilled the sacrifices, priesthood, etc. (all things that pertain to RIGHTEOUSNESS), does NOT mean that Jesus nullifies ETERNAL, EVERLASTING covenants that were made to abraham!!… as the scripture says: “My covenant will I NOT break nor alter the thing that is gone out of My lips”…. i don’t think God is going to alter Genesis 12:3 either…

shalom to all,
jen-o

Remnant says Comment posted on May 08th, 2008

Matt in order to answer your last post I guess I need to go over once again all the threads and draw your own comments for some and then ansewr you last few quetions. For a final time.

[Matt] If you read through my comments, I’ve never said anything to “demonize Israel.” I’m pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian. I think that the situation presents us with quite a conundrum and the best thing for us to do, is to pursue peace and justice for both sides.

[Remnant] The following are statements you have made in this rather lengthy thread:

[Matt] “American Christians have, for years, continued to support the Israelis in not recognizing the Palestinian people as a legitimate people with legitimate rights.”

[Matt] “There are 3.5 million Palestinians who are living in dire squalor because of the policies of the Israeli government “

[Matt] “they’re terrorists! Maybe, but are you willing to lump the American revolutionaries in with the “terrorists”? Are you willing to lump the ‘Hagannah’ and ‘Ergun’ fighters in with the “terrorists”? These two groups were the ‘freedom fighters’ of the nascent Jewish state.”

[Matt] “American Christians have, for years, continued to support the Israelis in not recognizing the Palestinian people as a legitimate people with legitimate rights.”

[Remnant] Forgive me you not only have demonized Israel but american christians, yet most of the major denominations are decidedly pro-palistinan and anti semitic. Most of those supporting Israel are evangelicals and fundamentalists and that number is decreasing. Being both pro Israel and pro Palestinian is a very schizophrenic statement I am pro John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. And also pro- no respecter of persons: The only way to pursue peace is by introducing both partys to the Prince of Peace, not to wait for peace as it will never happen Jesus save people not countries or political parties.

[Matt] Christians should be deeply saddened by BOTH Palestinian suicide bombers AND Israeli bulldozing of Palestinian homes.

[Remnant] I am saddened that a group of people who control an area choose to hide behind women and children and that they use these houses to attack another group of people. You mention suicide bombers but do not mention the rockets that Hamas launch from the cover of these houses.

[Remnant] I feel sad that this same group of people chose to vote both Hamas and Fatah into power and are living under the consequences of there own choices. You have stated that Israel needs to be allowed to have defensible borders. Removing these houses and bulldozing the homes of suicide bombers to stop them from launching rockets or become rallying points for others who consider these homicide bombers as martyrs, is very defensible. both morally and from a military defensible position. and I am sad that these people have chosen to allow their homes to be used for these purposes.

[Matt] We should be sad that people live without the peace and reconciliation of God, and without peace and reconciliation with their neighbor.

[Remnant] Yes Matthew we should be saddened and I am, I am saddened that people seem to believe that some peace process by man is going to bring this about. It is only through the Prince of Peace, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords that the peace and reconciliation of God, and peace and reconciliation with their neighbor can occur. My mission and statement from the great commission are not to wait for some man to make humanistic “Peace” but to go forth at this time and bring the peace of Christ through repentance unto salvation to those I meet every day. For some reason G_D has placed Arabs and Jews in my path. and for many years that is where my heart is. It is also for the homeless in this country.

[Matt] Remnant and Linda have good arguments when their hermeneutic does not include Jesus. But if you factor into the equation this presupposition from the New Testament that Jesus Christ fulfills ALL the Law and the Prophets, then things change. They must.

[Matt] Think about this: most of you would agree that the temple is fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Most of you would agree that animal sacrifices are fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Most of you would agree that the priesthood was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Most of you would agree that the office of the Scripture-writing prophet was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. You would agree with Matt. 5:17 Jesus came not to abolish, but to fulfill the law. You would also agree that Jesus fulfills the Davidic kingship.

[Remnant] Yes the sacrifice’s are fulfilled and there is no one here saying that they were not, all but many prophecies are unfulfilled. Damascus still stands, egypt is still habitable, There is a coming temple actually several of them and Jesus has yet to fulfill the fall feasts. Neither has the Lion of Judah come only the Lamb of G_D.

[Remnant] Matthew who is Jesus Christ? If you say anything other than G_D It would be heretical My hermeneutics do include Jesus as the Word G_D manifested in the flesh. The scripture’s I have used are from G_D and if you say that G_D has changed His mind then you are calling G_D either double minded or a liar. Mal. 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? In other words God is not a human who lies or a mortal who changes his mind. When he says something, he will do it; when he makes a promise, he will fulfill it.

[Remnant] Matt. 5:17 must be followed by 5:18 and included Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Matt. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[Remnant] Jesus fulfills the Davidic kingship? Yes he did before the world was formed, has he done so yet in our time line ? No or we would be living in New Jerusalem right now, and if you thing we are living in the kingdom of G_D at this moment here on earth then you are beyond help. He did fulfill the role of the suffering servant and the lamb of G_D as Yeshua ben Yosef. When He returns His role will be as Yeshua ben Davit and will at that time take up his Kingship. That is in our future and what we look forward to.

[Remnant] One of the reasons the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah was that he did not establish His throne in Jerusalem at that time. What they don’t understand today is the second coming. We Believers Look forward to His coming the second time the same way that Moses and the prophets looked to His fist coming. We look in faith and in faith alone.

[Matt] But, somehow, you don’t think that Jesus fulfills the land promises…it is just curious to me.

[Remnant] These are not promises they are covenant and The land is G_D’s land and Is holy unto Him. I’ am not going to keep going over this enough is enough forever is forever.

[Matt] And I wasn’t trying to say “I’m great…I went to John Higgins’ church.” I was merely trying to say that I know the Zionist arguments just as well as you do.

[Remnant] First of all Calvary Tri-City belongs to Jesus not John Higgins and He will be the first to tell you that.

[Remnant] If you know the arguments then why are you bringing all these things up there are some of us that are not blown by the winds but are rooted. And if you do understand these points why have you said you don’t.

[Remnant] As I have told you before have debated many Reformers and Calvinists, They will not budge and neither will I. I spent several years attending a reformation Bible study. All they could ever do was Talk in circles and arrive at the place they started.

Sadly in order for a Calvinist T.U.L.I.P. to continue to stand you must keep shoveling Catholic- Reformation manure on it.

This will be my final post on this thread and on this subject.

Remnant says Comment posted on May 08th, 2008

Correction

all but many prophecies are unfulfilled

Should be

while the law and the prophets are fulfilled there are many prophecies are unfulfilled

Matthew Wilcoxen says Comment posted on May 09th, 2008

To All,

I guess I’ll sign off, too: I would pray and encourage any observers to at least consider the issues raised here and look at Scripture. Also, check out the whole thread and be my witness: were my words not distorted? Did not, time and time again, I pose questions that were ne’er answered, except with this answer: “they’ve all been answered!”?

Further, have I articulated my views in an angry or demeaning manner? At the same time, have I not been demeaned? It is good to shred arguments and preserve people. If anything, some of my interlocutors have shred me and left my arguments standing for the time being.

And finally, consider this email I received from a very kind person. Ask yourself whether this should have any bearing on our discussion:

“If I were seeking to fill a a spiritual void in my life, and came to the ITD site, I would be totally turned off by most of the posters. I may be naive, but I find the message of Jesus to be synonymous with love and forgiveness. It is a message for the heart , not the head. I rarely read this message into most of the posts. I do see it in yours and Dave Lucas’.
Keep posting, you make it interesting.”

While it has been interesting (?), I do need to be signing off now and pursuing God’s kingdom of Shalom, which will someday break forth with both grace and wrath. We ought all to consider very carefully whether or not we are like the Pharisees, who were 1) ethnocentric, 2) self-righteous, and 3) obviously a little too sure of themselves.

In Christ,

Matt

P.S. Shalom, Linda!

Patt says Comment posted on May 09th, 2008

Mr Remnants last posts are usually quite interesting, if not lengthy, this one does not disappoint. However, he seems to confuse demonizations with facts that he does not agree with.
Israel will not have peace until Palestine also has peace. Think about it.
Shlama,
patt

Remnant says Comment posted on May 09th, 2008

Great Post Jen-O

Thanks for your work providing this information. I’m sure Matthew will pull the old “If you are like most Zionists you will only be able to quote some errant Mark Twain vignette in support of your claim.” thing which he so sadly quotes for anti-semite writings. Well we are not Zionists but Christians and Lovers of the Truth. Although I enjoy Mark twain and read quite a bit of his works The Innocents Abroad and Following the Equator The real information which he has stated does not exist, is as follows :

“There has been a continuous Jewish population in Israel since Biblical times. There have been difficulties maintaining a large Jewish presence in Jerusalem through the millennia — there was, for example, a bit of unpleasantness with the Romans around the year 70. But Jerusalem has been a majority Jewish city since the 1860s. In 1914, the British estimated that the city contained 45,000 Jews out of a total population of 65,000.

When the U.N. partitioned the British Mandate territories into a Jewish and an Arab state in 1947, the Jewish section held 538,000 Jews and 397,000 Arabs.

Jerusalem, with its 100,000 Jews, did not count, as the U.N. proposed to make it an international city separate from the Jewish state. As Alan Dershowitz has pointed out, those who claim that Israel was created out of a majority Arab region are counting the Arabs who lived in what was then called Transjordan as well as the West Bank and Gaza.

The U.N. partition plan gave the Arabs more arable land than the Jews and gave the Jewish state a painfully slender nine-mile wasp waist. Nevertheless, the Jews agreed to the partition. The Arabs rejected it and went to war to extirpate the Jewish presence.

In the war that followed, Egypt grabbed Gaza and Jordan took the West Bank. There was no talk then of ceding these territories to the “Palestinian” people for a new Arab state. They were merely called Arab refugees and, unlike the equal number of Jewish refugees who fled into Israel from Arab countries, they were denied citizenship, rights, and freedoms by their Arab brethren. They were left to fester in camps overseen by the U.N.

The Jews fled Arab nations because of persecution. Why did the Arabs flee the new Jewish state? (Note, many remained and became citizens of Israel.)

Writing in the most recent issue of Commentary, Efraim Karsh reviews some of the new evidence that has come to light about the events of 1948. Not only did the Jews not force the Arabs out of their homes, they made many vain efforts to persuade them to stay put. The 6,000 Arabs of Tiberias, in a typical example, were forced to leave by their own leaders, over strenuous objections from Jewish leaders.

It may be that the local Arabs were urging their people to flee in order to spare them in what they expected would be a genocidal rout of the Jews. Fawzi Qawuqji, a leader of the Arab Liberation Army, vowed to “drive all Jews into the sea.” Having tried and failed repeatedly to annihilate the Jews (an ideal the Palestinians have yet to forsake), they labor mightily to discredit the state of Israel, and that, one must sadly reflect, has been wildly successful. ” (Mona Charen, Jewish World Review )

No Mark Twain Here just facts:

Feel free to incorporate this with the information in to your post, sadly I believe this topic will continue to come up.

In Messiah

Remnant

Linda says Comment posted on May 09th, 2008

Considering the Palestinian doctrine is a to-do list to drive Israel into the sea, I personally don’t think the Palestinians will ever admit to having peace so long as Israel still exists.

Matthew Wilcoxen says Comment posted on May 12th, 2008

“The LORD works righteousness and justice for all who are oppressed. He made known his deeds to Moses, his acts to the people of Israel. ” Psalm 103

“When a stranger sojourns with you in the land, you shall do him no wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.” Lev. 19:33-34

“How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
Yes, ‘n’ how many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, ‘n’ how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they’re forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind,
The answer is blowin’ in the wind.

How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, ‘n’ how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, ‘n’ how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind,
The answer is blowin’ in the wind.

How many years can a mountain exist
Before it’s washed to the sea?
Yes, ‘n’ how many years can some people exist
Before they’re allowed to be free?
Yes, ‘n’ how many times can a man turn his head,
Pretending he just doesn’t see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind,
The answer is blowin’ in the wind.” –Bob Dylan

Please just consider standing for peace and reconciliation!

jen-o says Comment posted on May 13th, 2008

matt,

i also post on an ex-cult website… and someone recently posted this same song there (totally different context, of course)… but i do love the line: “how many times can a man turn his head, pretending he just doesn’t see?”

as for “oppression”, i hope that you are not insinuating that the “palestinians” are oppressed by israel… (they may be oppressed but it’s not because of israel!)

i would submit that israel is oppressed by the united nations, the arab countries that surround her, and international opinion…

btw, i am all for peace and reconcilliation WITH GOD…
“And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ…
To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself…
We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be ye reconciled to God!”
(2 Cor. 5:18-20)

shalom,
jen-o

Linda says Comment posted on May 14th, 2008

jen-o

re your statement “i would submit that israel is oppressed by the united nations, the arab countries that surround her, and international opinion…”

excellent observation!
i have similarly thought about it, but not in such a clear observation, so i guess you could say “you took the words right out of my mouth”!