In The Days

Patt says Comment posted on May 04th, 2007

President Bush is ready to get out his dusty veto pen and support “hate crimes”? James Dobson anoints this as a “thought crime”? I doubt that the loved ones of those who have been physically murdered would agree. It is shameful that we should even have the need to legislate this. Where are the Christian principles of …all men are created equal, love one another, turn the other cheek, and treat thy neighbor as thyself?
GOD bless(ed) us all.

Scott L. says Comment posted on May 05th, 2007

The ingredients of a brownie when made according to the recipe is delicious. But when you add a diferent ingredient, such as “poo” you dont’t notice this until you find out that your eating nothing but “poo”, kinda like the frog analogy, but I feel this is a little more descriptive of the liberal left. Our founding fathers were given a recipe for a government of equal rights for peoples of race, religion, sex, age and our freedom to live by our own choice without persecution of that choice, so longs it conforms to the laws of the land
God in his grace and mercy also has given us free will and choice as to how we will live and conduct our lives how we chose, he did not create us as robots, but how we chose to live, we also chose the consequences.
So because of the left wing liberalism we are no longer having that sweet taste of that brownie we once used to enjoy, now we are tasting the bitterness of thier “poo”.
Therefore Isaiah 5:20 stands alone in truth. Liberalism has allowed the choice of a people who want their perversion recognized as a God given right without consequence, and slowly taking away our conservative and biblical truths.
But as believers, we are to show compassion to those who are confused, not hate them, or to pass judgement by beating or killing someoene who choses to live a lifestyle thats contradictory to what the truth of Gods word is. Again I say, God never apologizes for his truth, and neither will I, and I will not allow the liberal left to take away my God given and constitutional right to speak out against what I beleive is TRUTH!! and will not allow their agenda to cause me to except their choice of lifstyle, bringing harm to anyone that has the freedom to chose how they live is wrong. “I will stand and hold my head up high, I will dedicate my life to the glory of the one who had to die, I will live, live what I believe, if it’s no one else but me, I will remember, freedoms never free”. (PCD)

Pat says Comment posted on May 06th, 2007

“Again I say, God never apologizes for his truth, and neither will I, and I will not allow the liberal left to take away my God given and constitutional right to speak out against what I beleive is TRUTH!! and will not allow their agenda to cause me to except their choice of lifstyle, bringing harm to anyone that has the freedom to chose how they live is wrong. “I will stand and hold my head up high, I will dedicate my life to the glory of the one who had to die, I will live, live what I believe, if it’s no one else but me, I will remember, freedoms never free”. (PCD)
This law does not ask you to give up your freedom of speech, it just asks that you share the podium. TRUTH with the big T is always true and can stand up to scrutiny.

aneriz says Comment posted on May 06th, 2007

There are already laws against personal crimes. These laws should be enough to judge and serve those who wrong others.
The problem with a “hate crime law” is that it will become a weapon of non-tolerance at the disposal of the left to continue to advance an agenda. Just in the same way that the separation of religion and state is used to reject the values on which the country was founded.

Sorry, if it was true that we could share the podium, they would not need laws to kick Christians out of it.

LINDA says Comment posted on May 07th, 2007

About 6 or 7 years ago as I was flipping through the channels to see what was on TV & I came upon a talk show host who was asking the husband (who really had an attitude towards his brow-beaten wife sitting next to him) why he cheated on his wife so many times, & the husbands answer was “Because I knew I could get away with it.”
So often news reporters (usually on FoxNews) talk about the war on Christmas, the burning of churches, removing the 10 Commandments, suspending students for praying, & so much more; and the reporters wonder out loud “why is Christian-bashing so prevalent?”
Has the Church gotten so luke-warm that the response would be “Because I knew I could get away with it.” ?
I’m not promoting violence, but we as Christians have admittedly let them steam-roll over us. We have the numbers, now we need some smarts & a solid strategy.
GOD grant us YOUR wisdom for these end days, in Christ Jesus most holy name I pray, amen.

Pat says Comment posted on May 07th, 2007

I am new to this site. I had expected to find love and compassion here, but instead have found mostly caustic and judgemental remarks.
Are we to interpret LOVE THY NEIGHBOR as Love thy neighbor…unless they are gay or have different belief systems. As long as we continue to point a finger outward and blame, instead of inward and accept , the message of Jesus cannot be viable. He gave His very life that we might open our hearts to love ; not close it to elitist dogma. The choice is ours.

Kim says Comment posted on May 07th, 2007

Well said, Scott!

phil says Comment posted on May 07th, 2007

Pat, I believe that everyone here has shown that Christians hate the sin, but love the sinner.

If you read all of the Bible you would not focus (over and over) on one statement made by Jesus. Yes, we love our neighbors. Christians have shown this repeatedly by helping and supporting those with needs throughout the world. You cannot say the same of many other religions.

However, Jesus gave no room for sin in his ministry. Those who refused to listen to the Word he called vipers.  Yes, he was compassionate to the sinner (eg the woman at the well, who was living an adulterous lifestyle) but he told them to go their way and SIN NO MORE. 

He stated very clearly that he came not to bring peace to the world but a sword (Mat 10:34). The sword would divide many because of the truth.

In addition, as others have pointed out, this law is not designed to “share the podium” but to silence those who do not agree with the way that the country is going. Have you heard anyone here saying that we need a law to stop homosexuals from stating what they believe? We are more than happy to state our beliefs openly and face direct challenges by others. It is those who oppose open discussion of all facets of an argument who need a bill like this.

Just my 2 cents.
Phil

aneriz says Comment posted on May 07th, 2007

Pat, I apologize for my strong response. I didn’t mean to attack you.

I feel strongly about this issue because behind some of this laws there is a thinking tank of organizations determined to change our country into a secular-everything-goes society by silencing the moral majority. This organizations are aggressive and ruthless.

On the other hand I agree with you and Phil that we are to imitate Christ and while denouncing evil, we need to be loving and caring for the ones broken by it.

LINDA says Comment posted on May 07th, 2007

The misconception is that christians are offended by gays. If that were the case, we would just follow the old cliché of “live & let live”.
However, once a Bible-believing christian reads the verses mentioned below, how in the world could we turn our backs on them & not try to explain the dangers that they are putting themselves into for the time of eternity?? And how can it be love to be misleading & act as though something is acceptable when GOD has very clearly identified it as unacceptable??
The choice is not ours, we have been commanded to be salt to the world.
If the choice was ours, I’m sure I’d rather go out to lunch & have an enjoyable time.

“The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.” Rev 21:21-27
“You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.”
Lev 18:22
The REAL “hate crime” is to keep silent.

Mark says Comment posted on May 07th, 2007

Amen Phil, and is this not also what was written by the Holy Spirit through the son of Mary and Joseph, and half brother to Jesus Christ;

Jude 1:22-23 And of some have compassion, making a difference; (23) And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. (Fear: that which stirikes terror )

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. (fear: reverence)

Pat says Comment posted on May 08th, 2007

My ,my, some interesting dialog here. I confess, I have not read the Bible cover to cover, I am not even close to being a master of Biblical quotes. But, by reading what I did, it fostered in me a great passion for Christianity. I became a student of it’s early beginnings. I wanted to know its origins, foundations, and how it came to such popularity. I absorbed myself in sacred scripture, both from the Bible, and from other gospels that were not included. I dwell on “love one another ” (over and over) because I believe that is the underlying meassage Jesus left with us.
Perhaps I can explain my thinking by using Scott’s Brownie Recipe as a metaphor. He and I both mix up a batch and enter them in the fair. We were very fortunate to have the most respected and credentialed Judge for the event. He is the original brownie maker!
After all the brownies had been judged, we both win blue ribbons. Scott’s recipe has been handed down to him for generations. He likes its flavor so well, he has no need to even taste other brownies. This recipe meets his brownie needs.
I am from a large eclectic family with many good cooks. For my recipe I take a little from one and a little from another, and I add my own personal secret spice which I find enchanting. (Scott has heard that this spice is “poo” and would not consider including it in his batch.) I love this particular brownie recipe, but am open to tasting other recipes. Some are to my liking, others just don’t do the trick. I have found that too many cooks do not spoil the recipe, they enhance it, give it an exciting flavor that is to my personal liking.
At the end of the day the Great Brownie Judge gave us both approval. In His opinion, Scott and I are both winners— all the brownies the Judge has ever tasted have their merits. Some are over cooked, some are half-baked, but all contain chocolate, His wonderful creation.
Back to the topic of the article. If we have to legislate a law to protect a person from getting the chocolate beat out of him for just being who he is, thenI support it. I do not know God’s plan for gays and lesbians, but personally will leave the judgement of evil to God, and let the individual be accountable for his or her own actions and choices.
I have enough to do to make sure my own choices are nourishing. I guess that is a part of live and let live philosophy. I am guilty. Blessings to all who have provided their insight.

jen-o says Comment posted on May 08th, 2007

pat,
i am glad that you have a passion for Jesus’ message to “love one another”, but i want to ask you a question: do you not think it is love to warn people of danger?… if you are a parent, you will understand what i mean… if a child goes near a hot stove or runs into the street, it is a good parent who will warn the child of the danger, and a neglectful parent who does not…

if we say that we love one another, then we will warn each other of danger…

love is not always a fuzzy hug… which is more loving?: to see a child wandering towards a dangerous situation and give them a hug, but say nothing… or to speak up and warn the child of the danger?… we do not warn the child to condemn them or make them feel bad… we warn them to protect them and keep them safe…

if we really do love each other, we will speak up and warn each other… even though we are adults, we still need to be warned of danger…

jen-o says Comment posted on May 08th, 2007

oh, and about the “brownie” analogy… if you change the ingredients of the brownie, is it really a brownie anymore?

you can call it a brownie, but is it really a brownie?

they call this legislation a “hate crime” bill… but is it really a “hate crime” bill or is it a “special protection” bill?… afterall, 55% of the “hate crimes” were racially motivated while only 14% were based on sexual orientation… and yet the bill says nothing about “hate crimes” that are racially motivated… so what is the real purpose of this bill??

Pat says Comment posted on May 08th, 2007

HI Jen-o
Depends on the perceived danger. Of course I would intervene when a child is in danger. That having been said, let’s cut to the chase. When it comes to gays, I personally cannot judge them to be evil, “genetic trash”, or an “abomination.” I am not gay, but respect their right to be whomever they think they are. If they offend God, I trust He will take care of the matter. This is my belief, it is not yours, and I respect that also.
Our “special protection laws ” protect against discrimination due to sex, creed, and color. So race is covered, sexual orientation, gender, and disability have been added. If you are a parent you can probably understand why Judy Shepherd thinks her sons death was a crime of pure hate. He was the college student who was severely beaten and hung on a fence in rural Wyoming. This was not a “thought” crime. It was the pistol whipping about the head that did Matthew in.

Joan H says Comment posted on May 08th, 2007

God has a plan for all of us, he loves/loved all of us even when we were deep in sin, and he keeps trying to get our attention so that we will turn our lives over to him.. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, none are righteous…. no not one… it doesn’t matter if you lie or hate someone or are homosexual, God hates the sin not the sinner, and wants to call all of us to repentance.. God has a plan for us on earth to lead a fruitful and abundant life,but we cannot have this full life without Jesus…we just can’t do it on our own ( if we drink too much alcohol, we are probably gonna damage our liver and hurt our relationships.. if we kill someone, we are gonna go to jail… etc etc…) God has a plan that even if we sin, he is quick to forgive us if we will but admit our sin, repent of it and ask him to be our saviour… God has an awesome plan for when our bodies die…. heaven is a magnificent place for those who call him Lord and saviour.. hell is a very real place as described in the bible for those who reject Jesus’s free gift of salvation!! God bless you all!!! Choose Jesus Now!!

jen-o says Comment posted on May 09th, 2007

pat,
you wrote: “depends on the perceived danger.”… let me ask you: how do we know what is dangerous or not?… by what criteria, do you determine what is dangerous and what is safe?… for me, that criteria is God’s Word… i do not want to stake my life on men’s opinions about what is dangerous and what is not… i can only truly trust God’s Word to tell me what is dangerous…

now, concerning “gays”, it is not i who “judge” them… God has said “there is none that doeth good, no, not one” (Romans 3:12)… so all human beings are in the same boat… we all need a Savior…

personally, i love homosexual people, but hate homosexual acts… yet, you say that you “respect their right to be whomever they think they are”… “respect” as defined by Webster is “to consider worthy of high regard, esteem”… that is the first definition under the transitive verb form… which verb form you used in your sentence… so let us not just throw around politically correct sound bytes… let us think about what we are really saying… do you really consider their right to engage in homosexual acts as something worthy of high regard and esteem?

because if you “respect” this as a “right”, then where is God’s opinion in the picture?… personally, i respect God’s opinion more than man’s opinion…

this “live and let live” attitude has consequences… and if you do not let God’s Word define the boundaries of acceptable behavior, then what is next… will it be politically correct to “respect” the right of a pedophile to prefer children?… oh, i know you probably think that is outrageous… but if you allow “men” to define what is acceptable instead of allowing God to define what is acceptable (via His Word), then you are opening yourself up to all kinds of things… and the rights of a pedophile are not that farfetched… currently, they have more rights than children in some of our states….

btw, about judy shepherd thinking that “her son’s death was a crime of pure hate”, aren’t all murders “crimes of pure hate”?… i mean, is there such a thing as a loving murder?… is there such a thing as a loving crime?

i do not believe in “special protection” laws… i believe in equal protection… we are equal in the sight of God; we should be treated equally… for God is not a respecter of persons, but men are… and they will legislate their respect of persons and elevate the status of certain groups if we do not speak out against it….

LINDA says Comment posted on May 09th, 2007

jen-o,
Thank you for bringing up “depends on the perceived danger” point.
GOD’s word says “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matt 10:28
GOD sent HIS only begotten Son from the glories of heaven to earth to endure the most horrific beating & then to be crucified. Jesus poured out His blood so those who accept Him as their LORD & SAVIOR would be saved from hell.
The “perceived danger” of hell is so real that GOD gave HIS precious Son to save us from it.
I pray the day will come when people will come to the understanding the reason why christians point out things of the Bible is not to judge or condemn, but rather to point out the trap satan has laid for them.
In Jesus precious name I pray, amen.

Pat says Comment posted on May 09th, 2007

Hi Jen-o
HUH? I am not sure I follow you. Transitive verb form??? It has been many years since I took grammer , so I am not surprised that I did not congegate a verb correctly. I did not follow how you took me from gays to pedophiles, to loving murder and implied that I hold all these in high esteem. Call me slow. About perceiving danger , I usually rely on intuition. If I pay attention, it serves me right. If prayer is us talking to God, intuition is God talking to us. Beyond that, I don’t know what else to say.
I do have a question though that I would be interested in your answer. Please take this in the way it is meant, true curiosity. Why are fundamentalists so concerned with homosexuality and abortion? They actually impact a very small population. Why not the same outrage for our current war, one that was based on pure fabrication and has taken countless lives, and still continues? Why not poverty which eats away at the virtue of humanity? Why not at pedophiles which certainly seem to be on the rise, and steal the innocence of their victims? Why not the genocide of Darfur? Why not child prostitution and slavery? I know there is concern for all these, but not with the same fervor. And, why do anti-abortionists call themselves pro-life? Most favor war and the death penalty, neither of which support life. Why don’t they just say they are against abortion? Just interested.

aneriz says Comment posted on May 10th, 2007

Brownies, huh?

I like brownies. Warm and with vanilla ice cream sliding off the top. Yum!

God made people, he likes them much more then we like brownies. He put part of Himself in us so we could relate to Him. We know no recipe with such ingredients.

What goes in the mix is not our choice, He is God. He calls us unto Him with unfailing love.

jen-o says Comment posted on May 10th, 2007

dear pat,
you used the verb correctly… i was just giving you the definition of the verb… (since the word “respect” is also used as a noun)…

i did not say that you held murder or pedophiles in high esteem… i was just cautioning you that if you allow “men” (people) to define what is acceptable behavior, then you are opening yourself up to all kinds of things… “men” (people) will always try to justify their behavior…

“intuition” is not always reliable either… what i am trying to say: is that the only thing that you can really trust and rely on to tell you what is acceptable or not is The Word of God…

now, about your question… it is a good question… i am not sure i can answer it, but it is a good question… i do not really know why there is not the same “fervor” and outrage against poverty, genocide, child prostitution, slavery, etc. … perhaps, there is the same outrage but it doesn’t get as much publicity… i will venture a guess that it is the media that focuses on homosexuality and abortion… because it is the media that is in favor of those two issues… the media is pro-homosexuality and pro-abortion… the media would be in a difficult position to support genocide, child prostitution, slavery, etc. … so instead, the media ignores those issues… and would prefer to focus on issues where they can point a finger at christians (and argue that christians are not tolerant of the rights of homosexuals and abortionists)… even though it is not a matter of tolerance… it is a matter of what does God say in His Word…

now about your second question: why do anti-abortionists call themselves pro-life? it is because they are pro (or for) the life of the unborn child…

concerning war and the death penalty: i don’t know anybody who favors war… war is sometimes inevitable, but i don’t know anybody who is pro-war just for the sake of war (well, except for jihad)… on the other hand, people do need to (and have a right to) defend themselves…

the death penalty is a complex issue… i don’t like to give a simple answer to something that is complex… (i’ve seen a 16-year-old girl get the death penalty in Iran after having been raped)… certainly, no christian would condone that… so, i think that a conversation about the death penalty is more involved and we would need to discuss the who, what, where, and why of it….

p.s. i think asking questions is a good thing…
:~)

LINDA says Comment posted on May 10th, 2007

“actually impact a very small population”??

Reported abortions in the United States, by year 1973 – 2005
47,282,923 abortions 1973-2005
3,542 babies are aborted every day (Falkland Islands population: 3,000*)
source: http://www.mccl.org/abortion_statistics.htm

Which is greater than the populations of the following countries combined
*source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population
Austria 8,292,322
Switzerland 7,520,000
Libya 6,140,000
Denmark 5,450,000
Finland 5,290,000
Norway 4,770,000
Ireland 4,234,925
Macedonia 2,054,500
Fiji 848,000
Cypress 835,000
Luxembourg 472,000
Bahamas 323,000
_________________
Total 46,229,747

If these countries were attacked, at least they would be able to try to defend themselves; what defense options are available to these precious little babies??….NONE!!!
Can people understand now why we are so concerned & sick at heart over this loss of precious life?
May Almighty GOD have mercy on us all, in Christ Jesus name, amen.

LINDA says Comment posted on May 10th, 2007

P.S. Just one more piece of info:

re: Babies aborted every day: 3,542
U.S. Deaths Confirmed By The DoD: 3379
Latest Coalition Fatality: May 10, 2007
source: http://icasualties.org/oif/

Joan H says Comment posted on May 10th, 2007

What an interesting lively discussion!! God bless you all!! I agree that we should all be as concerned about other issues, and abuses occurring in this world, and I would imagine that there are faithful people of God that are caring and doing something… I hope that in all this discussion that we all hear that it is not so much what we think, but what is it that God thinks and wants for all of us??.. It seems very clear in the Bible what he wants and is best for us… and to avoid the things that are not healthy for us physically or morally… Sex outside marriage grieves God just as much as homosexuality…as does any sin.. This particular web site deals with end times prophecy type issues. and one thing that increases in the end times ( and forgive me now, i do not proclaim to be a scholar of any thing.. ) is deception… And i believe that if the US “legalizes” same sex marriage and other things that are against what God commands is right or wrong, we are sinning against God and will be held accountable to that for contributing to that deception that it is ok to sin.. It is the duty of a Christian to stand for what God thinks is right and to inform others of that…. If we legalize same sex marriage, or legalize abortion as we have, i think we give a false deception that doing those things is ok.. and God definitely says it is not ok…. i think of the deception in the minds of the terrorists who were responsible for the 9/11 attacks on this country… believeing they were going to earn some giant reward in the afterlife for what they did… oh how they were decieved!! It says somewhere in the New testament about ( and again forgive me for not having the exact words) the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Jesus Christ, who is the image of God… for we do not preach ourselves.. but Jesus Christ as Lord!!! 2 Corinthians 4:4.. We are just trying to proclaim Jesus Christ.. and thank goodness we can still do so in this country!!

Scott L. says Comment posted on May 11th, 2007

I apologize for not following up sooner about my brownie analogy.

I didn’t know that it would get such a response. But praise God!!!.
To Pat, I encourage you to seek God and see for yourself in his word the true meaning of the “Brownie”. Isa. 1:18 God says, “come let us reason”.

In your analogy of our brownie bake off, there were two different recipes.
As you have said, that mine has been handed down from generation to generation. Let say that this is the true word God. (2Tim 2:13)
Gen. 1:1 “In begining God created the heavens and the earth and it was GOOD!”. God is the author of the the recipe, not me. In order to maintain the integrity of the recipe to make the brownie mix GOOD! we must follow the directions. (Psa. 34:8) if not, it will have a different taste than the original recipe calls for, it still might taste good but not as good as intended.
If I chose to add anything to my “brownie” mix, than what the original recipe calls for, then it is not the true recipe. On the outside it looks and smells like brownie, but it’s not what the author created, sure you can change or add to the recipe, but the author of the recipe said this is the best, because it is has the best ingredients. Adding to the original recipe does not make the brownie the truth.

Pat, I am not a bible scholar either, but when you search for the truth and God reveals his truth and you know deep down in your heart that what God’s word has to say and you believe what is said, you can’t change or add to the recipe, it just won’t taste the same. God’s word gives us warnings on the different recipes from other “cook books” on how to make brownies. Here are some warnings. (Mat 7:13-14, 16:6,11. Gal 5:9).
In the end Pat, when we stand before Jesus as our judge, either for reward of eternal life or eternal darkness, there is going to be one recipe that he will acknowledge, and that is his recipe for eternal salvation not any other recipe, God’s recipe is black and white, truth or lie, ther is no in between.

So Pat, I don’t know your heart, but you sound sincere in your search for the truth. So in the love of Jesus, we who love you and pray that God in his love for you will reveal is true recipe to you and you will “Taste and see that the Lord is good”, and that the brownie that God has made is the best and will receive the only “Blue Ribbon” in the contest.

And to all my brothers and sisters in Christ who respond to these atricles, may God bless you and keep you safe in these end times that we live in, for there are all kinds of recipes for truth, but there is only ONE WAY that leads to life, don’t be deceived.

Pat says Comment posted on May 11th, 2007

Hi everyone:
WHO knew? I had no idea what response my last communication would bring. This is good. Our differences stick out, but seems we can dialog around them.
I would like to express my spiritual path as clearly as I can, so that all know where I stand. I started out on this site as a bit of a know it all, and pushed the edge. You all took that out of me, and I thank you. I am trying to reach humility, and I can only get there thru humiliation. Then my purpose for continuing here was to express my opinion, but to honor the opinion of others . Hard for a self acknowledged know it all!
I am probably your worst nightmare. You would no doubt call me a New Age, leftist liberal, pro-choice nighmare. A Christian raised and educated who found that the religious dogma that I had believed in all my life left me with more questions than answers. I then began a spiritual quest to find that interior something that make one yearn to know God. Last evening as I was watering the sweet peas I had planted a few weeks ago, I noticed the first sprout had popped thru. I thought to myself, here is a fine example of the Divine , that spark of the unknown that told those little seeds to grow. In a couple of months, they will reach their highest potential and I will reap the beauty and fragrance of their life cycle. This path has taken me to some remarkable places, and I have met some amazing people, no doubt you all will contribute to my personal growth. My path is not for everyone. But it has allowed me to experience God in a way that I had just a knowing of Him. I have come full circle back to Christianity. This time I chose to focus on the history of Jesus, His life, what He said etc. Currently I am studying Christian Mystics, Theresa of Avilla in particular. I am comfortable with my spiritual growth, and do not feel deceived, but rather finally “at home” in the presence of God.
So there you have it, probably more than you wanted to know. I want to be as truthful as I can.
Now back to the abortion issue. The pro-life, pro-choice battle has raged most of my life. I feel we are at the same impass now as we were when this debate started. So, if both sides have drawn a line in the sand that we will not cross, can we come together on the common ground we share? Both sides are sincere about having a world where there is no need for abortion, a world where children are valued for the great gift they are (my great god-neice was just born a few hours ago). It seems clear that the debate needs to change from a solution to unwanted pregnancy to prevention. If we put as much energy into that as we have thus far put into the former, think of what we could agree on. It is a multi-level problem and will need multi-level revelation. Any ideas for discussion?
Well, I am off to bake a batch of brownies!!!!
PS. I had no idea this was a site for “end times phrophecy”. I may be improper by writing here, if so I apologize.

Joan H says Comment posted on May 11th, 2007

Iwas born, raised and brainwashed to believe that a “church” was the authority and truth on all matters, and well into my 30′ s i was miserable and really not certain why i was miserable, although some of my sin and it’s consequences I could no longer ignore……so i began a search… and found the person of Jesus Christ!! It sounds like an oversimplified solution for my very messed up life .. but after confessing my sins and accepting Jesus as my saviour my life immediately began an upward climb….Praise God! ( and could we not talk about brownies.. i think my cholesterol has skyrocketed this past week thinking about one of my favorite foods!!) Peace to all!! And no apololgies needed for anything P, check out the other articles on this website,as well as the other lots of interesting news stories, and dont’ know if you have a worship service you attend, but on Sundays at 9 and 11 am on this calvarytricity website AZ time, you can tune into the services to hear some awesome praise music, and hear the word of God spoken in truth by the minister at Calvary tricity…my apologies if i have come across and unkind or know it all . I only started reading God’s work when i was born again, and every year i try to read it cover to cover, and every year God reveals himself just a little more.. what a wonderful thing… God’s word . the truth you can depend on.

LINDA says Comment posted on May 12th, 2007

“God’s word, the truth you can depend on”…Amen!!

Remnant says Comment posted on May 14th, 2007

Dear Pat

I will apologize in advance for any offense I might cause you, my caustic nature has unintentionally offended more that one person over the years. That stated I must take the time to try to lovingly respond to your posts.

You state that “I am not even close to being a master of Biblical quotes”. Well sadly there are very few that are, but the Bible does state in 2nd Timothy 2:15 that we are to “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth”. I encourage you, to do so as this is not a suggestion!

Another Statement that you made was “ I absorbed myself in sacred scripture, both from the Bible, and from other gospels that were not included.” I to have studied and continue to study many Sacred Scriptures from the Apocrypha and the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha and view some as valid for study as long as they were mentioned in the closed Cannon of Scripture. There are many nonsensical gospels and writings, such as the Nag Hammadi and Coptic texts that are udder rubbish and some, down right blasphemous that have lead many into false doctrines. There are also, so called channeled fairy tales sold in new age bookstores like the book of Enoch (not to be confused with the books of Enoch in the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha) the Aquarian Gospel, the “new” found Gospel of Thomas and other novels of such ilk! We must be Bereans and search out the truth in all matters. I urge you to study why many of the other “Gospels” and writing were omitted from the Bible in the selection process that led to its canonization.

True Biblical Christianity is not a Chinese menu to pick 2 from column 1 and choose 3 from column 2. either we except G-D’s Word as an absolute or it is no longer G_D’s word, it then becomes mans word, which is unreliable.

Your statement “ This was not a “thought” crime. It was the pistol whipping about the head that did Matthew in.” The Idea of thought crimes is valid as there is thought behind most actions and speech, our freedom of speech is being taken away by those who feel they may say what they think, but those who dare to disagree with them may not. This is addressed more fully a few paragraphs below. But I ask you now does this mean that a thug, pistol whipping a store owner is any less hateful? No violent crime is committed in anything but hate, and my heart went out to the family of that young man, it also went out to the family’s of the men that committed that violent act, as well as the men who committed that crime. There is forgiveness for the perpetrators of this act of hate, through repentance and acceptance of the gift of salvation.

“Dwelling on love one another” is not selective, if it is then we are hypocrites. Right now it is not my job to judge anyone, it is only to love them enough to share the Gospel with them, and to confront sin when it is present, by lovingly calling the sinner into accountability and sharing the Gospel and what G_D’s Word says with them. To do other wise would be for my part, a hate crime, as it would show that I do not care enough for that individual to try to keep them from an eternity in Hell!

The Biggest hater I’ve experienced in these days is Miss Rosie O’Donell, she and many others spew their venom of hate on national tv daily. Also Sir Elton John and many other celebrities also speak hateful things. If you honestly look at the statements from the liberal left you will see the intolerance and hate that they pretend to find distasteful in the “right wing fundamentalists”. is acutely relevant to them but, these people will never be arrested for their words. It will be the pastors who speak from pulpits and believers in The God of the Bible the Christians who speak the truth, from the Word of G_D, who will find the handcuffs placed around their wrists. Please do not respond to me with the absurd statement that everyone has their own truth, and what is true for other people is different from my truth , at that point you are confusing truth with opinion. Truth is an absolute, if truth is different or if the truth changes then it is no longer truth.

In your comment posted on May 09th, 2007 you have touched upon many issues that are valid. However your concern for the violent end of one mans life while stating that abortion impacts a very small population is hypocritical. To answer your questions on the other issues, they stem from a society that has rejected G_D’s Word and as a result done what “feels” right to them. The outrage in Dafur is the result an Islamic society not a Christian one, and many of us so called “fundamentalists” have voiced our outrage at what has been happening there as well as in other places, our politicians have failed us, and in turn these poor people.

We “fundamentalists” are not just concerned with homosexuality and abortion. We are concerned with all the issues you’ve stated. However when we express our concern about these matters and show that they stem from a G_d less society, we are called hateful. The real reason we are called hateful, is that our words prick the conscience of the sinner, and they, in turn, trample the truth with inane babbling, so they don’t have to feel the shame which stems from within themselves. Because in truth, I do not have the power to make anyone feel bad, they can only respond to what is said and choose to feel that way. The rise of all the issues which you’ve questioned can be traced to the decline of Bible based Family values, which in turn impact society as a whole.

In closing I would say to you, that I at one time, held a lot of New Age beliefs. It took many years of chasing after the many empty promises from so called teachers. Years of using drugs to increase my “conscience and expand my mind” for me to realize that they were all void of any truth. I realized that I had been pursuing the lies of Satan while searching for G_D. I was a broken man physically mentally, and spiritually bankrupt, when I came to the knowledge and salvation of relationship with my Messiah, Yeshua (Jesus) I urge you from my heart to seek Yeshua yourself and find the truth there that sets you free, But beware, there are many false teachers in the “church” today. Wolves among the sheep and tares among the wheat. My dear child the harvest is near and the time is so short please do not delay .

I do believe that the Bible is being taught at Calvary Tri City. I have tried the teaching there and they are in line with Scripture. I have great respect for its Pastor, John Higgins who has been in the ministry for over 39 years he shows the love of Messiah in his teachings and more importantly in his actions!

In Yeshua
Remnant

Pat says Comment posted on May 15th, 2007

Dear Remnant, Linda , and Joan H:
Thank you for your concern and advice. We are alive at a most exciting time. Just as we are a very diverse species, we have very diverse paths to develop our spirituality. You all have found your path to be the Bible. You seem to be people who imerse yourselves in your beliefs , and I applaud you all. I also respect myself and the path I have chosen.
Namaste` Pat

jen-o says Comment posted on May 16th, 2007

dear pat,
regarding “diverse paths”, i just want to say that Jesus said, ” I am the way, the truth, and the life: no one comes to the father except through me.” John14:6… so every person must decide for themselves whether Jesus told the truth or was lying when He made this statement… if Jesus was lying, then He is a liar… but if Jesus was telling the truth, then there are no “diverse paths”… there is only one way (one path) that leads to truth and eternal life… and that Way is Jesus…

like i said, everyone must determine for themselves whether they think Jesus lied or told the truth… there is no middle ground…

LINDA says Comment posted on May 16th, 2007

jen-o,
Perfect, “Just the facts, Mam, just the facts”.

Remnant says Comment posted on May 16th, 2007

Dear Pat
Yes we are a very “diverse species” We come in many colors sizes and shapes, but we all have one soul and two places for it to rest.

The use of a sanskrit word in your sign off on your last post, tells me volumes about your beliefs. I ask you can they be proven scientifically, historically ( through archaeological means ) or are they just myths handed down with no real proof? My beliefs can be proven!

As you seem to reflect on many things I will lead you with something to reflect on, written by the founder of Mathematical Probability Theory, Blase Pascal.

“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Don’t you sit down and estimate the cost, to see if you have enough capital to complete it? Luke 14:28

Estimate the cost. Spiritual cost-benefit.

Pascal’s Wager*

Rationally whether or not to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, His Lordship, and Atonement should depend on two factors: the value of what you stand to gain or lose by believing or not, and the probability that it is true – which determines the probabilities of your receiving those gains or losses.

The Bible states that if you believe in Jesus you will have finite costs (foregoing “the passing pleasures of sin”, the effort of striving to do good); but you will have eternal life with God, a benefit of infinite value. On the other hand, if you reject Jesus you will have some finite benefits (enjoying whatever happiness the world and the Devil offer); but you will go to hell and be separated forever from God and all goodness, an infinite cost.

Suppose there is only one chance in a billion that Jesus is who the Bible says he is. Then it is still absolutely worthwhile to believe in Jesus; because, although you have a very high chance of paying some finite cost, nevertheless a tiny chance attain infinite reward still has infinite value – one-billionth of plus-infinity is still plus-infinity. And it is equally un-worthwhile to disbelieve, because, although you have a high chance of gaining some finite amount of benefits, even a one-billionth chance of minus-infinity has a value of minus-infinity, which outweighs all finite benefits. Only those who are absolutely certain that the Bible is false, who can give absolute zero probability to its truth, can rationally choose to disbelieve. For others faced with wager (and everyone is), the rational way of counting the cost always leads to trusting in Jesus.

Pat, I pray that you find the Messiah, and soon, time is short!

In Yeshua
Remnant

Pat says Comment posted on May 16th, 2007

Okay, just the facts mam. There are hundreds of versions of the bible translated by hundreds of humans into and from hundreds of dialects. Which translation is the true one? And if it is the TRUE one how do I know, and why are there so many “fakes”? How come God channelled a book 2000+ years ago, and hasn’t been heard from since? If Christianity is the only TRUE religion, why are there in excess of 2000 different Christian sects? Which is the TRUE one, and how do I know. If Christianity represents the only way to the Father, how do we explain the politics of the Inquisition and the Crusades?
When Jesus spoke, his words were in Aramaic. Like Hebrew, Aramaic allows for multiple translations and interpretations. An example: the words tub–good, and bisha–evil. These also carry the meanings of ripe and unripe. “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth” could also be “Blessedly ripe are those who soften what is rigid within, for they shall receive strength and vigor, their natural inheritance, from the energy of nature all around them.” (Dr Neil Douglas-Klotz ) So when Jesus said “Tubwaayhun l’makikhe d’hinnon nertun arha” those many hundreds of years ago, which translation comes closest to His intention?
History tells of a man who was known as a great traveling teacher. A man who was called “the good shepherd” “the way, the light, and the truth”, “redeemer” savior” , “Messiah”. He traveled with 12 companions. They purified themselves with a ritual using water. They ate meals of bread and concecrated wine. This man was born of a virgin on December 25th. He was burried in a tomb, and resurected on the 3rd day. These “facts” are not only attributed to Jesus, but to his predecessor in time Mithras, a pagan sun god . He was alleged to be a favorite of Constantine’s during his pagan days. Are the similarities just a coincidence, or was there a lot of borrowing going on in the early days? The idea of a god-man is rampant in ancient mythology. Jesus being God incarnate is not an original notion.
In my mind , believing in ” just the facts” takes a lot of faith and a lot of discernment. I am comfortable where I stand, just as you are.

jen-o says Comment posted on May 17th, 2007

dear pat,
as you know, i think asking questions is a good thing… and i will answer all of the questions you raised in your last post…
but first, i want you to answer my question:
Was Jesus a liar, or did He tell the truth?
shalom,
jen-o

Joan H says Comment posted on May 17th, 2007

i am at a financial seminar , and they talk about “noise” stuff that is just that and doesn’t mean anything usually and you should ignore when watching market ups and downs…. anyhow i really respect all the intellectual info that has shown on this conversation, i am not an intellectual at all, but i can say that i know there is a Jesus in my heart, the most sure thing i know in life./ and in death.. when i was lost in my sin and in my “church” there was one thing that motivated me to look for something to save me from my doomed life.. and it was fear, i didn’t know where i would spend eternity, and i didn’t want to gamble on that.. no matter what else anyone else tries to tell you in your walk,,,Fear is the beginning of knowledge… Jesus is the way the truth the life…. only in Him can you find peace of mind and everlasting salvation.. don’t bet on anything else!! Here’s praying Jim Dandy is fine, and that those Sweet Peas are glorifying God as we speak… God bless you I pray for you … joan h

Pat says Comment posted on May 17th, 2007

dear Jen-o
What a loaded question. If Jesus is a liar, we are all in trouble. Since there were no recording devices and He did not speak in English, I cannot personally attest to what He said. What remains today is the interpretations of many many others, from oral sources handed down to written texts that have gone thru many many translations.
The history of holy mother Catholic church, whose leaders cannonized the gospels of the new testement, has periods of time when it was lead by some rather dubious characters with questionable motives. That is why I believe that it takes a lot of faith and discernment to decide the Truth. That being said, I do believe that truth with the big T is there, but not only there. So, my answer to your question is NO, I do not believe Jesus lied, but those who tell me what He said may have.

jen-o says Comment posted on May 18th, 2007

dear pat,
i like you… i really do… and i enjoy talking with you because it helps me to put what i know into words… i am not a theologian or biblical scholar… i am a single mother with three kids… and they ask me all kinds of questions (some similar to those you have raised)… and i believe that i should be able to answer them in a simple and straight forward manner… i believe that the truth is so simple that a child can understand it…

so this is what i would tell my kids:
you have asked a lot of questions, and so we will have to take this one step at a time… you have also made some assumptions that were inaccurate while you were asking questions, so we will have to take a look at those, too.

now, the first thing i want to address is the many versions and interpretations question…
so i would ask my kids: do you believe that God is able to protect you?
(my kids would answer “yes” to this… and i hope your answer is “yes”, too… otherwise we will have to talk about this first…)
i’ll continue…
i would ask my kids some questions about God’s abilities (since He is the Creator of heaven and earth)…
do you believe that God has the ability to protect whatever He wants?
do you believe that God’s Word is important to Him?
do you believe that God has the ability to protect His Word?

does it make sense to you that the words that God spoke and had written down in His Word are so important to Him that he both wants to protect them and has the ability to protect them?

well, we are discussing some words that Jesus said… those words are found in the book of John, Chapter 14 verse 6…

let us look at what the translations and versions say:
pat, so what i did was look at 23 different versions of the bible regarding this specific verse to see what they all said… 13 of these versions can be found online at the “Blue Letter Bible” site… the rest of them i own hard copies of, so to speak… there is some overlap because i have “hard copies” of some of the versions found at the online site…. what can i say?… i like to collect bibles. :~)
so i would show my kids what the verse says in all these different bibles as well as the online site… so that they could see for themselves and not just take my word for it…

The bibles i looked at include:
The King James Version, The New King James Version, The English Standard Version, The New American Standard Bible, The American Standard Version, The Living Bible, Phillip’s Modern English Version, The Revised Standard Version, The New Living Translation, Today’s English Version, The New International Version, The Jerusalem Bible, The New English Bible, Gideon’s Bible, The Companion Bible, The Amplified Bible, The Message, Young’s Literal Translation, Darby’s Translation, Webster’s Bible, The Hebrew Names Version, The Latin Vulgate, and The Greek Interlinear Bible…

and guess what?
they ALL say the same thing!
check it out for yourself…
well… except that The Message substitutes the word “road” for the word “way”… (a matter of semantics, i think… that does not change the meaning of the 2 sentences that we are looking at)
but all the other bibles say the same thing:
that Jesus said in the first sentence that He was the way, the truth, and the life…
and secondly, that no one could come to the father except by (or through) Him…

so obviously, God thought that these particular words were worth protecting….

we could do the same thing with other verses in the bible…

i am very glad that you said that you did not believe that Jesus lied, but rather that “those who tell you what He said” may have lied…

so, i would say… do not listen to what people tell you that Jesus said… read it for yourself… read it in every version you can get your hands on and see if they don’t say the same thing… don’t take a person’s word for it that all these versions and translations say all kinds of different things… check it out for yourself!

so, now we are back to the original question: did Jesus lie or tell the truth when He spoke those 2 sentences in John 14:6 (I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through Me.)

since you do not think Jesus lied, then there cannot be “diverse paths”… there can be only one way to the Father God and that is through Jesus…

i will try to answer some of your other questions later…
shalom,
jen-o

Remnant says Comment posted on May 20th, 2007

Dear Pat

Since you want only the Facts:

The fact it took you six posts, over seven days to realize that this web site deals with end times prophecy makes me concerned about where you stand.

The fact you have stated that you’ve not read the bible cover to cover also concerns me, and I doubt You’ve personally spent a lot of time studying the Bible but have relied on what others have said.

The fact is there are many Bible translations but G_D protects His Word. And yes we do not have access to the original texts. We do however have access to the dead sea scrolls discovered in late 1947.

In fact in these scrolls The Book of Yesha‘yahu (Isaiah) is found to be intact and shows in Chapter 53 a strong picture of HaMashiach (The Messiah) and describes Him as the suffering servant . This is not the only place that a picture of Yeshua is prophesied, Psalm 22 also paints a picture of the crucifixion (a method of punishment not in use when it was written )

In fact the 12 who followed Yeshua were except for John martyred in very unpleasant ways, they could have avoided their deaths by recanting their testimony. Peter according to Foxes book of Martyrs was crucified upside down. I can not think of one person who would under go this to continue to perpetuate a lie! This tells me they were true to their faith Peter says it plainly in:
2Pet. 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pet. 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pet. 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
2Pet. 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

The fact is that the above scriptures are from the King James Version, however five other translations say the same thing, not including Tischendorf ‘s Novum Testamentum Graece, The Greek New testament Textus Receptus, both of which translate out to the King James! The Westcott and Hort greek is not worth 12 dead fly’s, and the Message is not a Bible at all but a very poor paraphrase.

As to the Catholic Church, it in fact is neither holy or the mother of Christianity. I urge you to study the Hebraic roots of the church as the Bible both Old and New Testaments are written by Jews for Jews and foretells the return of a Jewish Messiah, we gentiles are grafted in, a good place to start would be in the Book of Acts. Also a short book Restoring the Jewishness of the Gospel by David Stern, The God of the Bible by David Hocking, Both in fact are easily available.

Was Yeshua a liar? The fact is the question requires only a simple yes or no answer. the disciples were there to personally attest to what He in fact did and said.

In fact I personally, would think it takes a lot more faith to not believe Yeshua is G-D incarnate. I can in fact show 100 prophecies that were fulfilled by Him. May our Lord and Savior bless you and reveal Himself
factually to you.

In Messiah
Remnant

jen-o says Comment posted on May 20th, 2007

i think i need to clarify something i wrote in my last post… especially in light of some new information posted on this site… i.e. Tim Flemings “new version” of the bible….

i did not mean to imply that all “versions” are equal… certainly a “version”, such as Tim Flemings, which adds 4 new books to the bible is NOT equal to the King James Version…

now, we are back to the “brownie” analogy… Tim Flemings can call his new book a “version” of the bible… BUT if it adds to (or takes away from) the original scriptures, then it is really not a “bible” at all… as someone else mentioned, in Rev 22:18-19, God gave a very clear warning about NOT adding to or subtracting from His Word… (it is kind of like the mormons adding the “book of mormon” and calling it the Word of God)…

just because you call something the Word of God doesn’t make it the Word of God… if that were the case, i could write a book and title it “the bible”… i am sure everyone will agree that certainly doesn’t make my book the Word of God…

pat, the point i was trying to make was: just because you don’t have Jesus standing in front of you speaking English doesn’t mean that you do not have access to the words that Jesus spoke….

now, pat, you said that you have not read the bible cover to cover, but that what you did read fostered in you a passion for christianity… so, i would encourage you to keep reading the bible… personally, i use the king james version (although i do own a lot of other versions, i am most familar with the king james)… do not read “additions” to the bible… i mean, it really is not rocket science… most people know what a bible is… any bookstore will sell you one… if you really want to know what Jesus said, then you need to get a bible and read it…
shalom,
jen-o

Pat says Comment posted on May 21st, 2007

Dear Jen-o
There is no doubt in my mind that you are sincere in your belief of the bible. As a single parent with 3 children I salute you for giving them what you feel is the best religious foundation you can pass on to them. I am convinced that today we need to make that connection with God, no matter how we do it. That is our difference. Your belief in the bible works for you and is the ONLY way to get to the rewards of heaven. You have such a strong belief that you have found the way , you share it with others. Thank you for your concern and advice on how I could proceed to assure my place in heaven.
Because I have not read the bible cover to cover, does not make me ignorant of its history and teachings. As a young Christian child I was afraid of God, a fear that lasted well into adulthood. In an attempt to save my soul from eternal damnation, my teachers scared the “Be-Jesus” out of me. I knew that I could not love and trust God with my full heart, if I was afraid that He was just waiting for me to screw up, and punish me. With this attitude, faith was impossible. All the scarey bible quotes did nothing to help me find the loving God I needed. So, with that I went on my own search.
As stated in an earlier post, this journey has been remarkable. I have studied with some awesome teachers, read and reread amazing books and texts that are rich in the sacred, and have had spiritual experiences that do not have language to use to explain them. By develping a dilettante’s grasp of spirituality I have found the internal peace and connection to the Divine that I was looking for. It works for me. I no longer fear God, nor run from Him. When I get to the pearly gate, I think He will welcome me home.
In this time when either/or is being pushed to the max, understanding, not necessarily agreement of , will help push us to both /and. If we are all to live happily ever after on this planet we have to get along, differences , warts, and all.
Namaste`

Pat says Comment posted on May 21st, 2007

Dear Remnant:
I assume that Remnant is not your given name, but rather your pen name or the name you chose when you were born again.
Rest assured that all your concerns about me should not trouble you. I have very different opinions and beliefs from you, but that makes neither you nor me “right” or “wrong” just different.I do not need to defend my beliefs, but will not sit silent if “otherness” gets vilified as evil. Denegration of another serves no one. In his time, Jesus, preached a unique and modern doctrine without demonizing his opponents. He prayed for reconciliation—not the damnation—of those who opposed him. I try to do likewise, but Lord knows it is difficult.

Your opposition to the Catholic church is common and interesting to me. I have met a lot of Christians who do not claim Catholics or Mormons as Christian. What other Christian churches were in existence prior to the 1500′s when Martin Luther started the Protestant Reformation? Since then thousands of denominations have arisen. Why is it so hard for Christians to find agreement with each other. Early on the literalists just declared their competitors heretics, and killed them . In later years disagreements werea little more humane, if some didn’t like the way a church was operating, they simply broke away and started their own. Two thousand years later we could be far removed from the original doctrine. I would be interested in your answer as to why the NagHamadi and Dead Sea Scrolls were sealed and hidden in jars, and not kept in the mainstream. I will keep in mind your view that the Gnostic Gospels are pure “rubbish.”
No doubt Christianity has Hebrew roots, Jesus was a Jew. It also was heavily influenced by Paganism. Judiasm and Paganism were the popular religions of the time. They are the two main groups that early converts came from. Constantine ,who heavily influenced early Christian doctrine was himself a converted Pagan. Remember Mithras.
Whatever our personal beliefs, I think that most everyone will agree that something is afoot on the planet today. I think we all sense a huge element of change on the way. Will it be the Rapture, or will it will be a huge paradigm shift in consciousness. All the players of the most popular prophecies from the Bible, the Hopi, the Mayan Calender, Orion, Nostradamas , etc, etc, seem to be here now. Maybe we will both be “right”— the End Times will give birth to the New Age.
Namaste`

jen-o says Comment posted on May 21st, 2007

dear pat,
thank you for your kind words regarding my parenting… i know you meant it as a compliment… but… but i don’t want to give my kids a “religious” foundation… i want my kids to have a personal relationship with Jesus… in fact, i don’t even like “religion”…

i’m not talking about “religion”… i’m talking about “The Truth” (capital T… :~D)… i’m not trying to give my kids any “religious” foundation, philosophy, some truth, partial truth, a nice viewpoint, a comfortable set of beliefs, a nice fuzzy feeling, etc. … i want my kids to know “The Truth”…

it’s not about “what works for me”… in fact, it’s not about “me” at all…

a long time ago, i set out to find “The Truth”… i didn’t have a personal agenda… it didn’t matter “what” the truth was… as long as i found it… if “the truth” was that the world sat upon the back of a giant turtle… then, so be it… i had no personal stake in the outcome… whatever it was, it was… but i just had to know….

and so, i searched everywhere… i left no stone unturned… often, i ventured into dangerous territory as i explored the “occult”, astrology, numerology, reincarnation, eastern religions, cults, and every kind of philosophy… in fact, i ended up changing my major in college and getting a B.A. in philosophy… and everything i explored was a dead end… now, there i was, graduating summa cum laude with a degree in philosophy and people expected me to have all the answers… i had none… i was suppose to know something and i knew nothing… it was pretty bleak…

until… until i opened a bible and read it cover to cover… i tell you, those words just jumped off the page and started putting all the pieces together… then, i could see the “big picture”… and where all that “dead end” stuff fit into that picture…

pat, it’s not about “me”… it’s not about what “i” think… it’s about Jesus and what He thinks…

i’m a little confused by what you said…
you said, “we need to make a connection with God, **no matter how we do it**”… yet, you also said that you did not believe Jesus was a liar when He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”… those are two contradictory statements… so, please clarify: does it matter whether we go through Jesus to get to God, or not?

you know, you really can’t have it both ways…

and yes, i am concerned about your soul…

shalom,
jen-o (warts and all)

remnant says Comment posted on May 22nd, 2007

Dear Pat

Rest assured I’m the first to say that The Reformed Protestant Church is just as Catholic as their Roman counter parts. I agree with you about Constantine, and draw my doctrinal beliefs from the early Church which was a sect of Judaism.

Constantine, had his vision or dream at a very politically opportune time for him, the result was the start of a Gentile / Pagan mess that eventually became the Catholic Church.

The Early “Church” Fathers including Origin were anti-Semitic, Calvin and Luther were Anti-Semites as well (by their own writings). They distanced themselves from the Jewish Believers and the doctrinal beliefs of the early church and created a tangled web of deceit and then forced the Jews to convert, or killed them.

As for myself, I come from a Irish Catholic Father and a Scottish Presbyterian Mother, I grew up in the fifties and was part of the drugs, sex and rock in roll culture of the sixties, I eventually immersed myself in many secular humanistic studies searching for the “truth”. Its been a long strange trip that got me from Rama Dama Ding Dong, to the foot of Calvary, repenting of the evil and wicked life I had led and asking Yeshua for and accepting His Forgiveness and Salvation. At one time, I was a follower of the demonic cult Sat Mat, how Demonic? Ask my wife, she was taken over by the spirit of my “loving”, “gentle” and “kind” Guru, she had her body twisted in torment and her mind in anguish as she cried out for help and relief after giving me the message from this “loving” guru. This can happen to anyone who opens themselves to the demonic forces that thrive in this “new age”. I’ve met others who have had similar experiences with other “gurus” and “teachers”. I thank G_D I was delivered from this as well as the secular humanistic drivel taught in the “Institutes of higher learning”.

I for one don’t believe that any one denomination holds or owns the franchise. I do not believe G_D is an angry G_D, but he is a just G_D who laid out the plan of salvation for us all to accept or reject. He laid out consequences for rejecting this plan as well! Yeshua said “I am the way the truth and the light no man comes to the Father except through me”! John 14:6. That’s plain enough! Accept it or reject it! That is your choice!

The Bible is a love letter from G_D to the whole human race believe it to be just that or do not. That is your choice!

Your Idea that there are different paths and that all roads lead to Rome had better be right, as there is a huge event about to happen, The return of the Messiah for his Bride or if as you say a global transformation is going to happen, then if I’m wrong I’ve got nothing to lose, If I am right I hope you can paradigm shift yourself out of Hell.

Goodbye with Love in Messiah
Remnant

Pat says Comment posted on May 22nd, 2007

Dear Jen-o:
I appologize if my religious foundation remark offended you. That was not my intention. Being a mother is one of the highest callings, and to do it well is a gift. Few people differentiate between religion, truth, and spirituality. I do, and obviously, so do you.
I do believe that the destination of my soul is “about me” I alone, am accountable for my thoughts, words , and deeds while on this planet. That is not to say I do not have divine guidance while here. I do not believe Jesus was a liar. I do believe that the probablility for manipulation of what He might have said is high. The very cannonization of the bible was wrought with difference. One of my greatest questions is what criteria was used and by whom to decide which “gospels” made the cut, and which were determined to be heresy (root of which means to choose), and put into jars to be found by generations later? Power, greed, and control are headdy drivers in the chase for the truth.
I do not believe we need an intermediary to know God. I think the channel is open we only need be aware of it. Many talk to God , but fewer LISTEN to what He says back.
Just as you have found Truth in John 14:6, I have found it in Thomas 70: “Jesus said: ‘If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you’. ” Either/or; black/white; no Jesus/no salvation; just isn’t within me.
One of the greatest gifts bestowed on humanity isfree choice. I make my choices freely, and am responsible for their outcomes. Many of my choices are esoteric or as you say “occult” (root word means secret or hidden knowledge). I may be judged a fool, or perhaps astute. I don’t know. I don’t assume to know how or what God thinks. The thought that He thinks at all is most likely human projection. Time will tell.
I want to thank you for this lengthy conversation. It has caused me to ponder, research, and reflect on my thinking. In that way it has been a means of growth and learning for me.
Blessings,
Pat
PS for Remnant: I read CH Wagner Jr ‘s article on this site concerning Replacement Theology. I perhaps understand your posts a bit clearer. This is something I have not read of before. Yeah, another learning curve!

Missy says Comment posted on May 23rd, 2007

I have been reading the posts between Pat and others and would like to add something for everyone’s consideration.

I was raised Southern Baptist, but along the way I have studied other religions and beliefs in my search for the “truth”. I have been “out on a limb” with Shirley Maclaine, meditated, zenned, had psychic readings, read “Siddhartha”, studied Edgar Cayce, read the lost books of the Bible, etc, etc.

And all the while, my Lord and Savior, waited patiently. And this is what I found.

God inspired and moved holy men to write the scriptures. God watched over these writings and divinely protected what He thought should stay or go.

So, put it to the test. Read Hebrew 4:12, the Bible is God’s living Word.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us the Bible gives us instruction. And continue reading, perhaps, with a little prayer for our Lord to open your eyes, and you will find “The Truth”.

jen-o says Comment posted on May 24th, 2007

dear pat,
no need for an apology… your remark did not offend me… i understood your intent… but even if i didn’t, remarks do not offend me… i do not understand people who get offended by something another human being says… this whole business of having to walk around on eggshells and watch what you say lest you “offend” someone is just plain weird to me… according to etymology, the word “offend” comes from the French, and the basic idea of this verb is to “wound the feelings”… all i can say about people who claim they have “wounded feelings” over what someone else says is: they need to get over themselves… they need to stop thinking that the whole world needs to change to accomodate them… they need to stop whining about what other people say… they are so focused on themselves and their “feelings” that they try to control the words of other people, lest they get their “feelings” hurt… hence, we have “hate speech”… and now, are we suppose to worry about what every group thinks might hurt their feelings?… we have to have legislation to control the words of others?… because someone, somewhere, might get their “feelings” hurt… it’s ludicrous… these people who are so easily “offended” and so worried about their “feelings” getting hurt need to stop thinking that the world revolves around them… (okay, well there is my rant for the day… lol)

now, back to our conversation… :~)

pat, you wrote: “I don’t assume to know how or what God thinks.”… my response to that is: do you think that God created us, and then said, oh i’ll just let them guess and wonder about who I am and what i think… or do you think that God wants to communicate with us?… and if God wants to communicate with us, how does He do it?… the bible declares of itself that it is the communication of God to us (2 Tim. 3:16)

you also said: “The thought that He (God) thinks at all is most likely human projection.”… au contraire, this is not human projection… the bible talks about the “thoughts” of God in many places…

here are some of them:
Psalm 33:11
The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations.

Psalm 40:5
Many, O LORD my God, (are) Your wonderful works (which) You have done; And Your thoughts toward us cannot be recounted to You in order; (If) I would declare and speak (of them), they are more than can be numbered.

Psalm 92:5
O LORD, how great are Your works! Your thoughts are very deep.

Psalm 139:17
How precious also are Your thoughts unto me, O God! How great is the sum of them!

Isaiah 55:8
For My thoughts (are) not your thoughts, neither (are) your ways My ways, saith the LORD.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
now, regarding your concern over the “manipulation” of what is contained in the bible… personally, i believe that God both wants to and is able to protect His communication to us… i.e. His Word…

but yesterday, i ran across an article by Ray Comfort that might address this better than i can… Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron have a TV show called “Way of the Master”… you can find this article at http://www.wayofthemaster.com/articles.shtml … there you will find a list of articles by ray and kirk… the article i am referring to is entitled “So you want a “sign” from God?”… it is one of the articles in Ray’s archive list… actually, all the articles are pretty good and easy to read… maybe, you will have time to check it out…

anyway, i also want to thank you for having this conversation with me… it causes me to think about things, too… and so it has been a source of growth and learning for me as well… as i continue to search His Word…

shalom,
jen-o

Pat says Comment posted on May 24th, 2007

Dear Jen-o & Missy:
I had thought we had about discussed this topic to it’s end, but perhaps it has no end.
We have translated “made in the image and likeness of God” as humanizing God rather than seeing the Divine in ourselves. We have sterotyped God into 1) a male; 2) up there, in His heaven, seperate from ourselves; 3)a thinking, talking, God with eyes and ears; 4) old with flowing robes and a long white beard; 5 ) a jealous God who demands sacrifice and/or suffering and no other gods before him(Yahweh of the Hebrews); or 6) a loving forgiving God of now that demands perfection. There are many other attributes we have given, but you get my drift. If God is all there is, I can’t imagine why He would have to think. He just IS….the I AM.
I think God communicates with us all the time, we just don’t know how to listen. Our ancestors were more intune to recognizing guidance, but we have gotten so caught up in things of the mind, that we use our sense of reason to figure out everything, and have become very disconnected from our interior. We also have a great fear of change, we know if we listen, our lives will change and guidance isn’t usually the keys to a new Lexus! More often it is change your relationship, home, job, whatever. God will never ask us to leave the banquet table when our bellies are full. I think those who are seeking, searching, or have been born again, have awoken to that inner yearning to know God…that spark of God that is within us, and always has been. The message of the Mystics is that this connection is there, and we can access it. Jesus was a self actualized human….He got it! He told us we can do what He has done.
The power of God is infinite, and probably not understandable by our human consciousness, thus the Great Mystery. We don’t need to solve the mystery, but rather live in it.
One thing that is unique to humans is our free will—choice. If free will is a value of God, why would He intercede with our choices, ie: take over the protection of the written Word by over riding the choices of every human who has ever had determination of or translation of the Bible? Is He able to do this—absolutely, would He? I don’t know. If the Bible is inspired is not also the Bhagavad gita; the Tahmud; Quran; Avesta; I Ching; the Vedas; the Upanishads; the 7tablets of Creation ( many scholars feel this is the orgins of the book of Genisis); etc, etc. Or did God, the Creator of us all, play favorites? Saying that the Bible is the only inspired word, and has been protected through out time is certainly an emotional argument, but offers no tangible evidence. To say that the bible is the inspired word of God because the Bible says it is, is self serving. It takes faith to believe this and that the Bible is as today as it was when written. A lot of folks have that faith, I am not one.
SO, my question is: What is the purpose of life, why are we here?
Namaste`
Pat
PS I went to the site mentioned, but did not find the article in the archives. Did it have a different title?

jen-o says Comment posted on May 25th, 2007

aaarrrrgggghhhh……….

(okay, i hope i got that out of my system… lol)

dear pat,
you wrote:
If the Bible is inspired is not also the Bhagavad gita; the Tahmud; Quran; Avesta; I Ching; the Vedas; the Upanishads; the 7tablets of Creation, etc, etc.

it’s kinda like you said: i want to eat some soup… and then you went to the cupboard and opened up every can of soup you saw (clam chowder, beef barley, chicken noodle, cream of mushroom, tomatoe, minestrone, vegetarian vegetable, acorn squash, gumbo, corn chowder, lentil, asparagus and potato, shrimp bisque, french onion, bean with bacon, broccoli cheese, borscht, gazpacho, split pea, etc. etc.)… and then you poured them all into one pot, and stirred them all up, until you couldn’t tell what kind of soup you were eating…

it really is like that… maybe worse… you have mixed up things that aren’t even in the same category… like comparing apples to oranges…

pat, have you read these various books?… do you know what they really say?… i have read many of them… in fact, i use to own copies of some of these books…

let’s see if i can’t sort this out a little…

first of all, the Talmud (i think you meant when you said Tahmud) is a collection of discussions and commentaries about the 1st 5 books of the bible (in the old testament, also known as the Torah)… certainly, discussions and commentaries are not considered to be the “inspired Word of God”…

the “I Ching” is not even a body of doctrine… it is a book used as an oracle in a system of divination (fortune telling) that uses 64 hexagrams (or 8 trigrams) to make predictions… the instructions for using yarrow stalks to cast hexagrams are contained in the “I Ching”… after a person casts the hexagram, he then consults the “I Ching” and reads the text associated with that particular hexagram… the book is structured as an 8 X 8 matrix of 64 hexagrams… one can also cast a hexagram using different colored beads or marbles, or by tossing various amounts of coins… dice can also be used with odd numbers representing “yang” and even numbers representing “ying”… certainly, this is NOT the inspired “Word of God”…

btw, i hope you will agree with me that God does not contradict Himself… He does not make two opposite and contradictory statements and call them both “Truth”…

the 4 Vedas are hindu texts… the “rig-veda” and the “sama veda” are collections of mantras and chants… mantras and chants are repetitive “prayers” or words… the bible says, in Mat. 6:7, “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”… so, they both can’t be right!… either God wants us to chant or He tells us not to chant (say the same word/words over and over)…

the “yajur veda” is a collection of sacrificial ritual instructions and formulas… the bible says, in Heb. 10:6, “In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin, You (God) had no pleasure.” and in verse 8: “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them”… for Jesus Christ, our passover, was sacrificed for us (once and for all)… the sacrificial system is over…

the “atharva veda” is the “knowledge of the fire priests” who worship fire… it contains spells and incantations and is also the source of the “om” mantra… the bible says, in 2 Kings 17:17, “And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.”… and in Deut. 18:10, “There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination…” and in verse 11: “or one who conjures spells”… (consider these verses in the light of the “I Ching”)… either the Bible is right or “the vedas” are right… but, they both can’t be right!

there are not only contradictions between the bible and “the vedas”… other groups (such as buddhism and jainism) do not accept the authority of “the vedas” as well… (lest you think that everyone else is in agreement and harmony)… further, within other “religions”, there are also different sects and “denominations”… within buddhism, there are at least 10 different sects and divisions…

jainism states that “the universe was never created”… both science and the bible agree that the universe had a beginning… hinduism, on the other hand, says that everything in the universe is in a state of creation, maintenance, or destruction… this, too, has been disproved by science… the first law of thermodynamics states that matter cannot be created nor destroyed… the bible has no problem with science: God created the universe (in the beginning) and no new matter is being created… nor is any matter being destroyed… everything is held together by God…

the “upanishads” are connected to the “vedas” and they attempt to interpret the “vedas”… the “upanishads” call for self-realization… in the 5th upanishad, known as the “katha”, it states: “get up! wake up! seek the guidance of an Illumined teacher and realize the Self”… (self is capitalized in this verse)… the bible says the opposite: “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.” (Mat. 16:25)

the “bhagavad gita” is another hindu text and it claims to record a conversation between “krishna” and “arjuna” which takes place on a battlefield… in the 2nd chapter, “krishna” says there is no need to lament for those who are about to be killed in battle because “there never was a time when they were not or a time when they will cease to be”… the physical world is an illusion… death and mortality are illusions… the goal is to escape the cycle of “reincarnation” through realization of “Self”… then you can merge with “brahman” which is the impersonal universal energy… the way you can do this is by means of one of the 18 forms of yoga… in “dhyana yoga”, you sit in a special place, with your body in a special position, and you stare at the tip of your nose as you “meditate upon “Me” and make “Me” the ultimate goal of life”… or you can stare at the top of your nose between your eyebrows… (try it, all you do is go cross-eyed… do you really think THAT is what God wants you to do??)… this is what the “bhagavad gita” claims is how you attain to the “kingdom of God”… can anyone in their right mind really take this stuff seriously??

there is more to this hindu stuff… {like the caste system, the many, many gods (hindus can just pick whatever one they like to worship… brahma, vishnu, shiva, indra, varuna, agni, rama, krishna, etc. – whoever you like), the many, many contradictions within hinduism itself – some hindus have an impersonal god, some have a god with a personality, some do not acknowledge the existence of god at all}…
but i need to move on…

as for the “avesta” which is the collection of religious texts of zoroastrianism, there are so many translation problems that i’m not sure why you mentioned it… avestan is an old iranian language that became extinct in the 3rd century… it has such a lack of grammatical structure that it makes a literal translation extremely difficult… most of the translations are based on “middle persian” translations and commentaries which can differ widely… there are different forms of avestan and one is called “artificial avestan” – a form that was never spoken but used by zoroastrian priests to compose some of the texts… (and you think the hebrew and greek texts of the bible have problems…)

zoroastrianism, itself, has an obsession with fire (in my opinion)… they worship images, there is a heirarchy of angel-like “divinities” which they dedicate days on their calendar to, and they build “fire temples”… they have different grades of fire… the highest grade of fire is “atash behram”… this involves gathering 16 different “kinds of fire” from 16 different sources in a ceremony that can last up to a year while 32 priests go through the process of “consecrating” each “fire” by a purification ritual before it joins the other “types of fire”… prayers are recited before the fire in order to invoke special blessings for an individual or an event… only special priests can enter the antechamber before a fire and offer sweet smelling wood “to the fire”… the priest wears a cloth mask over his nose and mouth in order to keep the priest’s breath from polluting the fire… there are doctrinal statutes which list what fuels are appropriate to offer and which are not (yasna 3:1)… in yasna 62:1, it states: “the man who sacrifices unto fire with fuel in his hand… is given happiness”…
alrighty then, so who thinks this is the way to God?

concerning the Qur’an, (i’m just plain worn out by now)… so let me just quote a few of their “scriptures:
Sura 4:75-76
“and fight in the way of allah… god does not love the transgressors… kill them wherever you can find them… and remember persecution is worse than carnage… keep fighting against them until persecution does not remain and allah’s religion reigns supreme…”
Sura 8:65
“prophet! rouse the believers to wage war.”
Sura 8:60
“muster against them all the men and cavalry at your disposal so that you can strike terror into the enemies of allah.”
Sura 4:34
“men are the protectors and maintainers of women because allah has made one superior to the other… as to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them…”
obviously, the bible does not support any of this…

all I can say is: Jesus said, “if you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed… and you shall know the Truth, and the Truth will make you free” (John 8:31-32)

sorry this is so long, but when you throw everything into the soup pot… it takes a while to sort out…

shalom,
jen-o

Mark says Comment posted on May 26th, 2007

Good information Jen-o. But what caught my eyes was the comment
” Jesus was a self actulized human” What ? Jesus is 100% man and 100% G-d! Jesus is the creator Psa 8 and John 1:1-3, eternal Rev 1:8, unchanging Hbr 13:8, creator & redeemer Col 1:13-18, Omnipotent Philip 3:21, Omnipresent Matt 28:20, Omniscient Jhn 16:30, Jesus is G-d Mark 10:38. That is why they wanted to stone Him becuase He not only made Himself equal to G-d but was also G-d.

Scott L. says Comment posted on May 27th, 2007

Jen-o, now that was just a whole lot of TMI, but it was well worth reading thanks for the info.

Scott L.

jen-o says Comment posted on May 27th, 2007

dear scott,
excuse my ignorance, but what does TMI mean?… i get confused on all the acronyms out there these days… :~)
i know i got a little carried away with the “soups”… lol… i was just trying to make a point about how people just can’t follow every kind of doctrine that is out there… not only do these doctrines not mix with the “Truth”, they don’t even mix well with each other… people need to be aware of what exactly it is that they are following… and they need to choose wisely…
personally, i think the only wise (and rational) choice is to follow Jesus Christ, who has saved us from the confusion… (and there is some confusing stuff out in the world)… but, God is not the author of confusion…
shalom,
jen-o

jen-o says Comment posted on May 27th, 2007

mark,
that caught my eye, too… but i guess i got a little worn out in the “soup pot”… i did want to mention something about that… so, i guess i will now…

re:
“Jesus was a self actualized human….He got it!”

not only was Jesus NOT a “self-actualized” human, He did the exact opposite… He did NOT spend his time focusing on his “self”… He did not spend His time focusing on the “me”… He focused on others… He came into the world to sacrifice His life for others… He did not come into the world to elevate Himself…
Phil. 2:7 “But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men”…
He was a servant… He did not come into the world to have some sort of “self-actualization” experience… or to focus on “self-realization”…
and we who are the followers of Jesus Christ follow His example… we are here to serve others, not to focus on ourselves… and certainly NOT to follow some kind of doctrine that tells us to “find” ourselves through “self-actualization”…

it’s not that Jesus “got it”… He WAS it…

shalom to all,
jen-o

Joan H says Comment posted on May 28th, 2007

Hi you all!!
In 1998 I had been born again for only a few years, and I had a mailing list of senators that I would write to against any legislation that promoted the “gay agenda” . I actually hadn’t ever met any “gays”. I had always commented before I was saved, that “if i ever find out some friend of mine is gay, they aren’t gonna be my friend anymore!!” As it was around the time that Matthew Shepard was murdered…I was so saddened by the situation… the Lord placed an openly gay man in the work area I was employed in. I witnessed really mean things done directly and indirectly. to him… the Lord started to change my heart toward this man, and I felt called to lovingly witness to him…. he had lost his license and had to use public transportation , so for many months I drove him home talking to him about the Lord and how the Lord had saved me from many sins, and how He had changed my life.I tried to help him with his workload as others would not . It was such a miracle in my heart for me to do these things,that I knew it was of the Lord… The old Joan wouldn’t have done that. She would have been heckling with the best of ‘em! The Lord really convinced me that sin was sin, and that it all grieves Him, and that I shouldn’t get so high and mightly about how “saved” I was… and that that wasn’t about to help Him get anyone into the kingdom with that unloving attitude…. Anyhow at last contact this man was quite miserable… very much living the gay lifestyle , but I think that the Lord used him to remind me to watch my approach to others that He loves also, and that he wants everyone to come to repentance so they can enjoy the benefits of a realtionship with Him,here on earth and also for eternity… As I was reading in “Matthew” this week about being obedient and “Loving the Lord with our whole heart, mind, body , and soul, and then loving our neighbors as myself”…I again realized in repentance that that is a hard thing to do, and only with the grace of our Lord and Master.. Jesus!! We are called to profess Jesus to all… so keep up the Lord’s work fellow brothers and sisters in Christ….
Jen-o , Remnant thank you for bringing out info about other philosophies and trying to make sense, order and truth out of this conversation…. You are all made awesome thru the love of Jesus, we are nothing without Him…

Scott L. says Comment posted on May 28th, 2007

Jen-o, L O L (TMI) TO MUCH INFORMATION

I was just amazed at the information you provided to us all. You know your religions well. It just exhausted me reading your comment as well it exhausted you to write it, so thats what I meant about TMI.

I totally agree with what you say. There is so many false doctrines out there, that it’s easy to be mislead frome the truth, another one of satans tools, which in your studies of other false religions you find they don’t mention or even warn of the danger of satans lies.

Jesus said “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Because, narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life and there are few who find it.” (Mat 7:13-14). Amen.

Again we can go back to the “brownie.” In the begining God created. And in the begining man decided to add more to God than what was meant to be. Man just kept on adding more and more to the relationship to God that it became man worshiping man, therefore it is now what we have today, just a plain lie about what God had intended for us from the begining. He didn’t create, we evolved. God doesn’t loves us, he hates us and he can’t wait to punish us. We don’t want his work through the cross of Christ, our work is far more better than his plan of salvation, etc, etc.

But Jen-o, here is the scary part, what about the religions that teach a form of the gospel, but have either added or have taken away from the truth, here are the two biggest examples, Mormanism, and the Watch Tower. We who are founded in the true word of God can pretty much blow off those religions you mentioned, but these two can be very misleading, they sound good, real good but are a complete lie from the pit of hell. For those of you who disagree with that statement go read about Jesus in the wilderness when satan was tempting Jesus, and how he tried to use the scriptures to deceive Jesus to believing his doctrine of truth, things were added or taken away. Jesus had to recite the true recipe of his word.

So Jen-o, thank you for the information you have provided it’s good reading, I’ll be pasting that to a folder, if you don’t mind.

And shalom to you my sister in Christ

Scott L.

Scott L. says Comment posted on May 28th, 2007

Joan H.

Isn’t awesome how God through the Holy Spirit begins to change our hearts and our way of thinking towards other people and when we start to have those judgemental feelings, the Holy Spirit kinda taps us on the shoulder to say that we were just like that at one point, just like Paul reminding us in the letter to the Roman church. But thank God for his saving grace through the blood of Jesus.

After Promise Keepers in “96″ I seen the power of God. I could not believe that over 55,000 men could come together to find God and worship him at the same time. I grew up in the church, but only had a head knowledge of God, not a heart knowledge. This event in my life changed me. I was on the brink of another divorce and my life was a total mess. But after the years, God in his loving ways began a new work in me, and has restored my marriage and has peeled away those bad layers of my life.
So I understand your “born again” experience, and it’s awesome to see how God works in other peoples lives.

Pat, at the end of her comment ask the question, what are we here for?
Well in Genesis that question is answered. (Gen 1:26) “And God said let us make man in our image and our likeness.” and to rule over the creatures of the land, sea and air. (Gen 2:5) “and there was no man to till the ground.” So we were not only to be the stewards of Gods creation, but also we were created for fellowship with him, he created us to be like him.
But as we read on, man changed that image through sin (disobedience).
So Gods plan has never changed he still wants us to be the image of himself, but now it’s through the image of his SON. And I praise God for his loving kindness to me and truly want to have the image of his son to be my life. Selah.

So Joan, praise God for the grace and mercy he has shed upon you. And I agree with what you said about this co-worker who is caught up in the gay lifestyle, keep showing that love towards him, give account for what you believe and show him the image of Christ in your life, and let God go before you in the battle.

I’ll be prayin for you and your co-woker.

God bless
Scott L.

aneriz says Comment posted on May 28th, 2007

Brownies, soups…is this the cooking page of this blog?

Scott L. says Comment posted on May 29th, 2007

We’re just making everybody hungry for the word.

Pat says Comment posted on May 29th, 2007

I posted a reply last night, it was there. Now you see it, now you don’t. I assume I was dissed from the site where truth is sought.

May we all live in peace,
Pat

Scott L. says Comment posted on May 29th, 2007

Pat, I’m sure it was a mistake, I know Pastor John and after speaking with him last Wednesday night I know that he has a heart for people seeking the truth. So hang in there. God said “That if we diligently seek him, we will find him.” We are not here to diss anybody, just to love, encourage and to lift up each other in Christ Jesus, he is our true salvation for a dark world that we live in.

Love in Jesus
Scott L.

Phil G says Comment posted on May 30th, 2007

Jhn 18:37 … To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Jhn 18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?

Pat;

This is not a site seeking truth, but one that is proclaiming the truth.

Jesus is the truth and bears witness to that truth. It is the world (in this case, Pilate) who scoffs at the truth. Seeking to find the truth through other, so called, “inspired scriptures” will only confuse you further.

Pilate also appears to have sought “truth” through other means. He seemed to be seeking “inspired” knowledge by listening to his wife’s dreams. A lot of people are “into” dreams these days. You also appear to be seeking truth through other means but you will not find it there.

For those who are searching for the truth, this site is here to proclaim it, not to debate it, nor to seek it through other means.

Many people believe that the Roman Empire killed Christians because of their belief in Jesus. This is incorrect. The Romans had many gods and couldn’t care less about another one. They fed Christians to the lions and burned them at the stake because they said they worshiped the ONLY God! In other words, by proclaiming that there was only one true God, they were seen as intolerant in a society that worshiped tolerance.

Going back to the original purpose of this thread, this is what this law sets in motion.

If the world feels a need to legislate that this truth is not spoken, then how badly does the world want to know the truth?

Phil G

jen-o says Comment posted on May 30th, 2007

pat,
oh, there you are… i was wondering where you went…

good to see you… :~)
i agree with scott… i am sure it must be some kind of mistake… no one is “dissing” you… or kicking you off the site…

i am sorry you lost your post… i know that can be frustrating… i have had that happen before, too… (on various sites)… usually, it’s the server’s fault or a computer glitch…

anyway, good to see you…
jen-o

p.s.
phil, it does seem like this thread has been hijacked… lol…
this one thread seems to have taken on a life of its own, and become more like an open forum… not that that is a bad thing… i have enjoyed the conversation here…
:~)

Pat says Comment posted on May 30th, 2007

Dear Jen-o and all:
Well, my ” inner child” had a snit, but, my “big girl self” is compelled to answer Jen-o’s long narrative. My intention is not to convince or devince(is that a word?) anyone of anything. If we look at our history and then to our present ,we will need tolerance to reach our future. I feel that your definitions of the religious beliefs of others focuses on the extremes, and shows little understanding (would you want the Bible to be judged soley on Deuteronmy 22:28-29;Numbers 31:1-18; or Leviticus 20:9-13?)

I hope this is a misprint. ” hinduism, on the other hand, says that everything in the universe is in a state of creation, maintenance, or destruction… this, too, has been disproved by science… the first law of thermodynamics states that matter cannot be created nor destroyed” It is ENERGY that cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be transmuted or transformed. Matter is easily destroyed. You only have to watch the evening news of the war in Iraq for proof of this.

What the “apples” and “oranges” have in common is they are all sacred texts of some of our world religions. The thread of unity of these texts is their belief of a supreme being, and the human connection to such. These texts have been in existance for thousands of years, and many are seeing a surge in popularity today. The Bhagavad Gita is to Bhakti Yoga ( the yoga of love and devotion) as the Bible is to Christianity. The Bhagavad-Gita focuses on Arjuna’s devotion to the God-man Krishna. Krishna, similar to Jesus, is God incarnate in human form.

Humanity is hard-wired for spirituality. Since our species became recognizably human we have worshiped gods. Our ancient ancestors created religions at the same time they created art. This was not just to placate powerful forces, but also , these early faiths expressed the wonder and mystery that is the human experience of this beautiful yet terrifying universe. Religion and Art have been an attempt to find meaning and value in life, despite the anguish and suffering that the flesh endures.

There are similarities between the Bible and other wisdom traditions. One example is the Golden Rule:

“What you do not wish done to yourself, do not do to others.”
Confucius ( 5th century BC)
“What you yourself hate, don’t do to your neighbor. This is the whole Law; the rest is commentary. Go and study. ”
Rabbi Hillel (40BC-10AD)
“So whatever you want people to do for you, you do the same for them; for this is the law and the prophets.”
Jesus of Nazareth (C-30AD)
According to Anas, the Prophet Muhammad said, “None of you really has faith unless he desires for his neighbor what he desires for himself.”
Hadith (7th century AD)

A good reference book of camparative religion is THE JOY OF SECTS by Peter Occhiogrosso. Peter is an acquaintance of mine, and is knowledgeable, non biased, and easy to read and understand.

In the early 60′s, the invasion of Tibet by Mao Tse Tung, forcing the Dali Lama to flee; and the conclusions of Vatican II; released scripture and doctrine into the public domain that had hereto then been private and protected. The East met the West in a spiritual sense, and the interest, conversations, and discourse has continued since. Is it not strange that the Yahweh, Allah, and God—the Supreme Beings of the trinity of monotheism—all have ancient claim the same holy city?

This quote sums it up for me:
“As many lights shine as there are pious pilgrims. If God is infinite, the way that lead to him must be infinite….Why discuss or debate? What matters is to find God at all costs and not to torture oneself over the choice of the best road to take. Rigid adherence to certain dogmas is not indidpensable; at times it can be harmful. If you know God, you will not concern yourself with doctrines. You could have read all the holy books of all the religions, you could believe in all the revealed credos, and yet be incapable of finding God!” Ramakrishna of Bengal in “The gospel of Sri Ramakrishna”.
May you all be well—
Pat

Pat says Comment posted on May 30th, 2007

PS
Dear Jen-o et al:
I just re-read my answer to Jen-o’s long post, so It is here, as was the other. Anyway, it has a tone of arrogance about it that I do not want to project. I can be quite forceful about my opinions, just ask Joan H. I agree that this site has taken on a life of it’s own. Everytime I think well, that’s it— it isn’t. My 2 greatest passions are religion and politics. Go figure.
I wanted to comment on the Self actualized comment that stepped on so many toes. In my opinion: Jesus actualized his Higher Self, His own Divinety, the God within. He realized His Self. He understood at the deepest level “Know thyself”. He told us we too could do this, and I believe we will.
Again, it is not my intention to change anybody’s beliefs etc. Just a little
R-E-S-P-E-C-T(thanks Aretha, now I dated myself!) and kindness towards other beliefs. Thanks—Pat

Phil G says Comment posted on May 31st, 2007

Pat, your true new age colors are beginning to show.  I am not sure that you ever had any interest in “seeking truth”, but merely came to spread new age ”misinformation” and white-wash it with a simple statement that we need to “R-E-S-P-E-C-T” other beliefs. This dispite us repeatedly showing that such an attitude is what has got this country (and world) into the mess that it is in now.

Jesus said that he came NOT to bring peace (let’s all get along attitude) to the world, but a sword – that would divide us along the lines of truth. Again, this site is here to proclaim the truth, not a “let’s all get along” attitude.

Yes, that causes division. But it should do that; because it will also cause us to re-examine our beliefs. Dispite all of the evidence presented by others, with love and kindness, you choose to continue in your deception.

For example, your statement “If God is infinite, the way that lead to him must be infinite….” is in direct opposition to what Jesus stated….

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I know that I must sound very harsh. I make no apologies for that, because (with reference to your above statement)….

It is my FULL intention to try to change others’ beliefs. It is what we are called to do.

Phil G

jen-o says Comment posted on May 31st, 2007

i’ll try it one more time…

Regarding the following statement you made:
“I hope this is a misprint. ” hinduism, on the other hand, says that everything in the universe is in a state of creation, maintenance, or destruction… this, too, has been disproved by science… the first law of thermodynamics states that matter cannot be created nor destroyed” It is ENERGY that cannot be created or destroyed…. Matter is easily destroyed.”

No, this was NOT a misprint!
Physics 101 anybody?
according to einstein’s theory of relativity, E=m x c (squared), energy and mass (matter) are equivalent… [matter is the layman's term for "mass"... it is the substance of which physical objects are composed]… matter (mass) and energy are 2 forms of the SAME thing… so if energy CANNOT be created nor destroyed, NEITHER can matter (mass)…
the formula states:
E (energy) EQUALS m (mass) {times the conversion factor of the quantity (c) squared…
matter is NOT being destroyed (no matter what you think you see with your eyes)….
matter is composed of atoms (which are composed of protons, neutrons, and electrons)… protons and neutrons are further broken down into quarks… none of these small particles are destroyed (although they may be converted into energy)…

so we are back to the problem:
if hindu scriptures are “inspired” by God, and hinduism is “a way” to God, then how come God didn’t know the 1st law of thermodynamics and the theory of relativity?

btw, the quote by ramakrishna is illogical…
“If God is infinite, the way that lead to him must be infinite.”
the above quote is an if/then statement… and it does not follow the rules of logic…
just because God is infinite does not mean that it logically follows that the way to God is infinite…
this is ramakrishna’s opinion… and like i said before: i do not care to follow ANY man’s opinion…
as for me, i will follow the revealed Word of God… and nothing else…

shalom,
jen-o

Pat says Comment posted on May 31st, 2007

Jen-o
I stand corrected. You are absolutely right on. I was thinking of the mundane definition of matter. I neglected that we were talking about thermodynamics, my mistake.
I hope that you get to experience the Rapture (I am assuming that is your belief ) in your lifetime. Many before you have been disappointed.
Myself, I shall continue to learn as much as I can about all there is to learn . You believe only one of us will make it to “heaven”, I believe we both will.

And to Phil:

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. If I read between the lines, I can almost sense your compassion and kindness. Attitudes such as division not unity; let’s not get along vs understanding; and the best of all, I know the truth and you know nothing; have caused many a person to close The Good Book . Remember when you “know everything” there is no room for learning.
May you be happy.
Pat
The Three Fates: Clotho spun the thread of life, Lachesis measured it , and Atropos snipped it with shears, thereby ending it.

aneriz says Comment posted on June 01st, 2007

Pat,

I see you riding away in your high horse and waving comtempt as you go.
You knew quite well what this site stood for before you came and while you were here. What you don’t know is the love of God thru Jesus, for if you knew, you will give it all to be at His feet. I do pray that your “travels” in search of truth will bring you to know Jesus.

Until then, be well.
A.

s.r. says Comment posted on June 01st, 2007

i am so grateful that Jesus said something about we must be as little children, ‘cuz if i had to grasp what has been discussed by you all, i’d never make it!

my ?’s are as follows:
if there are many ways to God, then why did He require the blood of HIS Son to cleanse our sins and redeem us to Himself & not the blood of the founders(?) of other faiths?
what about the 500 witnesses who, after seeing Jesus Christ ascend to Heaven, would rather accept death than denounce what they witnessed? who witnessed Mohammed’s flight?
who witnessed Joseph Smith using the magical stones he put over his eyes so he could read Egyptian plates?
what other “holy” books written 2000+ years ago contain prophetic statements that have since come to pass; AND continue to line up with today’s news reports?
why do so many want to complicate God’s message of grace & salvation through Christ Jesus; is it a matter of control?
why, when Jesus said “it is finished”, do people insist on adding unecessary requirements?

The way i see it is Jesus paid a mighty high price to build the bridge for us to be able to come before the throne of His Father with our prayers, concerns & worship; & WE did not place one brick, stone or nail in that bridge.
if someone in our family made the ultimate sacrifice in front of our eyes in order to save the life of another & that person just walked away without even acknowledging what just took place and then told reporters that it was his friend (not our family member) who saved him, how would we feel? could that be a little insight on how God feels when people refuse to accept the sacrifice that Jesus made on their behalf….

i know, child-like thinking. but all i want is Jesus & i continue to pray over my relationship with Him, His Father, & Holy Spirit.

May Almighty God bless you all with His wisdom & revelation, in Jesus name, amen.

Phil G says Comment posted on June 01st, 2007

Thank you S.R. for reminding us all how truly simple the gospel is. It is refreshing to see your comments and I agree with you on the points that you make.

I would like to make the following comments regarding Pat’s last post. I have no desire to continue an argument with her but would like to make some points for those who have been reading along silently and may also be asking some questions.

Pat makes the comment about “Attitudes such as division not unity”. It should be noted that we do not choose division, but division was thrust upon us by Satan. Adam walked with God and talked with Him in the Garden. Not until Satan beguiled Eve, was division thrust upon man. We would choose to be united with all if it were not for evil. But because of evil, the Word says …

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord

and

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

for there are those who oppose the Lord….

Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

It is God’s desire (and ours) that all men are united with Him again, but He will not allow evil to enter the sheepfold.

Let’s be sure that we understand the post that started this thread. Too often it has been ignored.

Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.

One additional point to be made regarding Pat’s last comment. She state’s “I hope that you get to experience the Rapture in your lifetime. Many before you have been disappointed.”

I can assure everyone that no Christian would be disappointed that the Rapture has not come. Before the Rapture comes, there is still hope for those who do not believe (we all have someone that we still hope will come to the saving knowledge of Jesus).

I assume that she is refering to some sort of disappointment at facing death rather than being taken up in the Rapture. However, a Christian passes from “life to everlasting life” whether he passes naturally or goes in the Rapture. There is no difference. It all happens in the twinkling of an eye.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And a final thought. Pat states “I stand corrected” but she does not refute any of her previous statements.

Perhaps, I appeared very harsh in my previous response, but it may be due to the fact that I too, at one time,  looked at new age and in fact have read most of the books that she quotes. None of them spoke of the things that the Bible speaks of, as pointed out so well by S.R.  In the end I found them all like Jesus described ….

Mat 23:27… ye are like unto whited sepuchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men’s] bones, and of all uncleanness.

I do hope that Pat will eventually come to a saving knowledge of Jesus.

Just my two cents.
Phil G

Joan H says Comment posted on June 02nd, 2007

Salvation means to be rescued from sin and its punishment and set free to know love and serve God. Jesus says “I tell you the truth everyone who sins is a slave to sin.. if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed!” John 8:34,36
All People have turned away from God and broken the law of God (liars, prideful, idolators, blasphemers, those in sexual sin, etc) Jesus says “All have sinned and fall sort of the glory of God” Romans 3:23
Left to ourselves there is no rescue, and the justice of God requires our eternal damnation in the terrors of hell.. Jesus says “Whovever believes in the Son has eternal life, and whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” John 3:35
Victory over sin was obtained when God sent His Son Jesus to earth , Jesus obeyed God’s laws perfectly,yet He died to pay for the sins of all who believe. “This is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins” 1John 4:10
Admitting that our sin has put us in a desperate situation is the first step in our rescue. “If we clain to be without sin, we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins ” 1John 1″8-9
Taking the free gift of Jesus payment for out sin makes us “not guilty” in God’s sight. “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord .”Romans 6;23
In gratitude for such love, we follow Him in obedience and sacrificial service. “Therefore, I urge you in view of God’s merc, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God” Romans 12;1
Only Jesus has provided the way to salvation ” Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we muct be saved” Acts 4:12
Now is the time to make your decision . ” now is the time of God’s grace, now is the day of salvation” 2cor6:2
How do you recieve salvation? By beleiveing that Jesus came to earth and lived a perfect obedient life , and that puts his righteousness in perfect account with God in our behalf, and believing that Jesus died on the cross for us, those who ask for forgiveness and believe , and give their life to Jesus alone, are saved!!
I know I would love it that the Rapture would delay till all my friends and relatives came to know the Lord, but it is God’s will whatever happens..In the bible the disciples went to Jesus to ask him why they were unable to “heal ” someone… and Jesus replied.. “only thru fasting and prayer”…. so i would beseech all of you believers to fast and pray and seek the Lord and be in prayer about your own walks, to remain steadfast… God is good.. so do all these things for the glory of GOD, and don’t give up on those who are lost!!!

jen-o says Comment posted on June 02nd, 2007

okay… well, this is a little late… but, i am going to re-post it anyway…
i had originally posted it on 5/31 in response to pat’s 5/30 post… i tried to post it 3 times, but only the last part of my post showed up… (see pat, you’re not the only one who loses posts)… :~)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
here is my original post:

pat wrote (to me):
“I feel that your definitions of the religious beliefs of others focuses on the extremes, and shows little understanding (would you want the Bible to be judged solely on Deuteronomy 22:28-29; Numbers 31:1-18; or Leviticus 20:9-13?)

(my reply):
gee pat, you sure found those scriptures quickly… now, how is that?… either you have read (and know) more of the bible than you have let on… or you asked someone else for their opinion about what i said… which is it?

pat, i’m gonna tell you upfront that this post may come across harshly… it is not my intention to be harsh… but, sometimes my choice of words sounds that way to others… i don’t know why that is… (maybe because i am saying something they don’t want to hear)… anyway, i’m just letting you know that i am not angry, upset, mad, etc. … i am just trying to express myself… :~)

okay, first of all… your above statement is a gross mischaracterization of what i did… i did not hunt for some obscure or minor detail of these “religions” in order to point a finger at them… i gave basic summaries of what these “sacred texts” are about… i focused on basic principles/practices… if you don’t think i am right, check out an encyclopedia… it will be FAR less biased than someone who titles a book “the ‘joy’ of something”… what i wrote is definitely not a secret… nor is it MY definition… nor am i focusing on the “extremes”…

the Talmud IS a collection of commentaries…
the I Ching IS a book used as an oracle…
the Rig Veda and the Sam Veda ARE collections of mantras and chants…
the Yajur Veda IS a collections of sacrificial ritual instructions…
the Avesta HAS major translation problems…
the Bhagavad Gita IS in the form of a conversation between krishna and arjuna…
etc. etc.

these are not minor details… like i said: if you think that i said something that was not accurate, just check the encyclopedia… this is not some “secret” knowledge…

concerning the Qur’an: you are right – i just quoted some scriptures… what i should have said was: the Qur’an is a twisted and rambling, disjointed body of work that was received by ONE man (via an angel) over a period of 22 years… and that such man was reported to have “mysterious seizures” during the moments when he received the information… this man was unable to write down the information he received, because according to the Qur’an itself, he was unable to read and write…
okay, well the adjectives are my personal opinion :~) but the rest of what i wrote is fact… (compare to the bible which has over 30 writers (some living hundreds of years apart)… and still is a cohesive whole and literary masterpiece)…

now, about “our ancient ancestors creating religions at the same time they created art”… i am not disagreeing with you… people create “religions”… i am not interested in following some man-made religion… i want to know and follow the “Truth”…

[insert post concerning the "misprint"... which was NOT a misprint... and explanation about einstein's theory of relativity, physics, etc.]

which i still think was an important point because we are back to the same problem… and pat, you didn’t answer my question:
“if hindu scriptures are “inspired by God, and hinduism is “a way” to God, then how come God didn’t know the 1st law of thermodynamics and the theory of relativity???

also, regarding ramakrishna’s quote which was illogical… how come God doesn’t know the rules of logic???

pat, isn’t it hard to follow a god (or gods) that is “stupid”… if you (as a human) know more than the god you follow, don’t you see a problem with that?… i mean, what kind of god are you following that doesn’t know basic information contained in a Physics 101 class… information that you, yourself, know… is this a case of the “blind” leading the “blind”?

the “gods” of the “new age” are blind, deaf, and dumb idols… they cannot speak to you… they cannot hear you when you have a problem… you cannot have a relationship with a wooden or stone idol… and if you have created or invented a god just to make yourself feel comfortable, then how can your god know more than you do?… it is just a created thing…

you previously assumed that we christians had made a “god” in our image: male, old, white beard, up in heaven (separate from us), etc. etc.

but now, i think that you made that assumption that we had made/invented/created a god in our image to suit us because that is exactly what you have done and are familiar with… you have been hanging around with people who invent their own gods… so you thought that we did the same thing…

but, we do not invent a god (or gods) to suit us…
we serve the only Living God…

pat, turn away from worshipping created things, and turn toward the Creator… the Living God…

shalom,
jen-o

Scott L. says Comment posted on June 04th, 2007

Jen-o

I sure do love reading your posts.

But if you think mohammed was trippin, what about joseph smith and his peyote visions of the angel moroni and the so called “golden tablets”. (I apologize for not capitalizing the names, they really don’t deserve that much attention). Anyway lets not forget the book of mormon, and how decieving this religion has become and also the watch tower of the so called jehovahs witness’s, for if they truly were witness’s of God they would testify to the saving work of Jesus the Christ and not the works of themselves.

These two man made religons are a soft and subtle lie directly from the pit of HELL!. What better way for satan to deceive and to cause apostacy in the church. These religions are not christian whatsoever, and thier books written by “so called holy men”are just as much garbage with no bases of truth when compared to the true WORD OF GOD!!!!!!. Amen.

So, Jen-o, thanks again for the info. To me I find it so much easier just to sit at the feet of Jesus and give him my true worship, then to try and figure out all these man made philosophies and doctrines that mean nothing at all and don’t get you any closer to a relationship with the true living God. For my works and my righteousness are nothing “For when you consider what Christ has done for us on the cross is it to much to ask to give your bodies as a holy and living sacrifice unto him.”

Pat says Comment posted on June 04th, 2007

Will try again to repost. Jen-o we must have like kinks in our postabilities.

I thought for sure this thread was done. But I feel I must respond again.

After my last post, I perused the site and read a few articles. I was particularly interested in the ones concerning the emerging church. I now better understand many of the comments that have been made. I was supporting views that you find so vile.

Me and my high horse were not waving a flag of contempt, but rather one of frustration and wonder. I could not connect that you called yourselves Christian, but maligned so many other Christian churches and/or their representatives. But it is the focus on the “truth”, that has me most perplexed. Perhaps “my new age colors” prevents me from understanding that a small group (globally speaking) , of which you are a part, are given the ability to comprehend the “real truth” , and it is the responsibility of those in the group to demonize any other belief systems . You know yours is the real truth, because it is in the bible. The bible is the true word of God because it says it is. The bible is to be taken literally as written. Sometimes science and prohpecy support the truth in the bible. The bible has been protected by God since its inception and has never been manipulated, altered, or added to as a means of control of power and wealth. It was written by a group of men, no women, who are human, but were divinely inspired. These texts remain intact as inspired, and all translations have been protected also. Intrepretations differ from minister to minister, priest to priest, man to man, but this small group knows which ones are true, and which are heretical. Other similar texts have been found hidden away in jars, but these are rubbish and need no explanation. Some are even fairytales. One is written by a woman, God forbid. Certianly it is blasphemy, as the book of truth speaks of fatal treatment of women and children if they get out of line. (Jen-o just google scarey bible quotes, or conflicting bible verses, don’t need to be a scholar or interview others.) The bible has many mentions of prostitutes but, the inspired patriarchal authors do not mention a priestess.
Some former bible only Christians have become discontent with just reading and reasoning bible verses. They started to look in other places. Maybe even unite with other religions as one in God. They wanted to feel the bliss that their neighbors spoke of , they wanted to rid themselves of fear and suffering. All of a sudden they saw the world had color, was no longer black and white. This is driving the small group crazy.
That is my tongue in cheek interpretation of what we have been discussing this past month. I have been called a liar, satanic, misinformed, deceived, deceiving, new age, stupid, and Lord knows what else has been thought but not written. What I do not understand is why the spiritual beliefs of others is such a major concern to you all. If you have found the truth, and you live it to the best of your ability, why do you care how others pray?
What difference does it make if their sacred scriptures come in commentarys or conversations; mantras or chants; parables or myth; nature or ritual; literal or allegory? Just because you disagree, does not eliminate them. In fact, just the opposite is happening. These teachings are re-emerging in popularity. I cannot understand why that is worisome to you. You feel you have found the way and the light of the creator and need not seek further. So, why is it your mission to have everyone believe as you do? Be content. We are all going to the same airport, we are just coming in on different run-ways. The important thing is— we all bought a ticket!
Namaste`
Pat

Scott L. says Comment posted on June 04th, 2007

Pat
After reading your post, and I’m glad you decided to stick with us.
There is alot of us out there that have been where you are at in your spiritual search for the truth. We are instructed by our bible to “be able to give an account for what we believe”. We all have a personnel walk with our Lord and Saviour, who by the indwelling of his Holy Spirit are lead to the truth of a living God.
Unless you have the Holy Spirit living in you, the truth that we believe in will never be revealed to someone who has not come to the knowledge of the saving power of Jesus the Christ, but that doesn’t mean you can not attain that indwelling, it’s a free gift given to us by God, he seals us as his own, once we become a child of God “being born again”.
God says “it is not his will that anyone perish”. And Pat, it is black and white. Jesus said “chose life or death”, “I rather you be hot or cold, but if your lukewarm I will spit you out of my mouth”, and “if you deny me before man I will deny you before my father in heaven.”
God said “that he is no respecter of man, or (woman).

Just because God did not use a woman to pen the writings of the bible, it does not mean that they have no significance in the bible and were not used mightly by God, and the one we all know of Mary, (thank goodness he didn’t take a rib out of Joseph, to create Jesus), Rhab the prostitute, Ruth, Mary Madgdelene, Esther, I could name a few more to prove that woman are just as important to God as man. Sometimes God has to use a woman to get the job done, beacause man gets his “machismo” all up in the air. When it comes to alot of spiritual matters in my marriage, I listen to my wife, because she can hear God better than I can, I get to busy. And besides I have learned not to mess with Gods daughter(s), I treat them as if I was meeting her earthly father, true Christianity had set the woman free, they are respected more than what other religions teach.

We are a peculiar people, but we believe, what we believe. And it comes down to this, throw away all the books, the philosophies, the doctrines, the contemplating navel lint, chantes, the mantras, hey throw away the bible if you want, but the faith that we have that sets us apart from all religions, is the fact that we believe that God sent his Son to us (this sorry race of mankind) that while we where his enemy, he gave his life for us that we may be saved from the judgment that is to come, and that he died in our place to atone for the sins of all mankind and womankind, and God by the power of the Holy Spirit raised him frome the dead three days later.

Pat, God is just asking believe it or not, it’s just black and white, it is just as simple as that, a free gift to take and enjoy. To be truly at peace with God.

So be content where your at in what you believe, I hope you are at peace, we can’t change your mind, and we are not trying to make you believe the way we believe, thats not our job, we can’t save you either, but when Christ has done a miracle in your life like he has done in mine, and in Jen-o, we do want people to know the true God of Isreal, it’s like having all your debt cleared without paying it back, and getting a bonus of lifetime free credit.

But one thing is for sure, we all carry that same ticket, but do you have your boarding pass with an assigned seat?

We do LOVE YOU!!!!!!! Pat.

Scott L.

jen-o says Comment posted on June 05th, 2007

hi scott!
i totally agree with you.
“in the beginning God created. and in the beginning man decided to add…”
now, ain’t that the truth!

and that is why we have so many “religions”…
take a little bit of truth, add some opinion, subtract some doctrine… and voila, we have another man-made religion…

it’s exactly what happened in the garden of eden… satan follows the same pattern today…
Genesis chapter 3:
satan starts the conversation: “has God REALLY said that you shall not eat of every tree of the garden?”
(satan tries to get people to start questioning God)

what God said is recorded in Chapter 2: 16-17…
but eve decides to converse with satan and responds: “we may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden”… eve omits something that God said (thereby subtracting from the Word of God)… eve omits the word “freely”…

next, eve adds to the Word of God… regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil: eve says, “you shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die”… eve adds to the Word of God when she says “nor shall you touch it”…

now that eve has added and subtracted from the Word of God, this allows satan to come right in with a direct contradiction: “you shall not surely die”…

and so, this has been going on ever since the garden of eden… and satan doesn’t even have to change his pattern… just get people to add and subtract from the Word…

i agree; it is scary when the “religion” teaches a form of the gospel… but satan doesn’t even need to change his game plan… just add and subtract from the Word until he can state a direct contradiction… and mormonism and jehovah’s witnesses are two good examples of that…

you are right: it’s a good thing we don’t have to try and figure out all these man-made philosophies and doctrines… because we do not study the “counterfeits” to find the “truth”… we study the “truth” and then we can spot any “counterfeit” that crosses our path…

shalom,
jen-o

Scott L. says Comment posted on June 05th, 2007

Amen! Jen-o, Amen!

Like I said to Pat, When the Holy Spirit leads you to the real truth, you believe what you believe and the so called wisdom of man can’t change what you believe, because once the truth is embeded into ones heart everything else is garbage.

Like the word says, “God use’s the simple to confound the wise” (paraphrased), and isn’t Love simple, to those who love God.

Thanks again Jen-o for your insight.

May God the father of our Lord and Saviour Jesus, The Christ.
grant to all of you grace and mercy.

weezy says Comment posted on June 05th, 2007

Pat said: “We are all going to the same airport, we are just coming in on different run-ways. The important thing is— we all bought a ticket!”

Pat,
I have followed your conversation with great interest. There is one thing I do not understand. What do you do with the fact that you are a sinner?

I didn’t understand that I was a sinner until I was 31 years old. I had tried all my life to do what is right and be good. I thought I was a Christian, and I thought Christians didn’t get angry, so I felt I didn’t have that problem, even though I was full of anger and hatred. I had even read the Bible through a number of times. Then over a period of time I read:
(as you read, remember, man can be read mankind which would include women)

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Mark 7:20-23 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

I realized Jeremiah 17:9 was correct regarding my own heart when I started seeing the rebellion (against God and His ways) that was in my heart; the hatred and anger in my heart that God saw as murder; and that I was not capable of loving the Lord the way God said to in both the Old and New Testament.

If you want to use the ticket analogy, you are right, there are two tickets offered before we get to the airport (death/God’s judgment).

1. Every religion offers a ticket of your choice that is paid for by your own works and does not pay the price God requires. It keeps you in the kingdom of darkness and death. The King of this kingdom is a murderer and a liar and a deceiver. He is going down and he wants to take as many folk with him as he can. He doesn’t love you, he hates you and he wants to see you die in your sins.

2.The other ticket offered has been paid in full by the death (shed blood) of Jesus Christ. It is a free gift to those who will accept it and realize there is nothing they can do to purchase that ticket. This belief system is not a religion, but a relationship with the Living God of the universe who loves people and has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). When we accept this ticket (which we cannot pay for because our heart is desperately wicked and there is NO GOOD in us) we are freed from the Kingdom of Darkness and Death and enter the Kingdom of Light and Life. The King of this Kingdom IS Truth, Life, and Light. This King died so that you could be in His Kingdom forever. You just have to accept the ticket.

Pat says Comment posted on June 05th, 2007

I do not even know where to begin. First of all, I should clarify what I think you think! I thought I knew, but many posts showed me I do not. I think you think: The bible is the only way to God. You believe it has never been altered from the wordsGod Himself spoke. Every word is to be taken literally, it is not a work of metaphors or symbology. We are all sinners, Jesus died so our sins would not keep us out of heaven. God is jealous( no other gods before me), vengeful (death ,tsunami’s, earthquakes ,the Bush administration,{ sorry }) and , demands obedience of His laws which are only found in some of the bibles. Your religion/spirituality is not created, influenced, or controlled by man. If I don’t start believing as you all do, I will perish in hell for eternity because???? I am stupid? I am evil? I didn’t eat my vegetables? I am skeptical of the veracity of the bible? I find God in many places and in many ways? The devil has control of me, and I don’t realize it? All of the above?
I have been very nondescript about my own spirituality on this site. I feel that my relationship with God is deeply personal and intimate. I was purposely general and have not shared many particulars. It is the pearl and swine thing. Besides, you all seemed to know what I believe, so there was not need to expand. But, just for the record, I do not worship wooden or clay gods, I rarely chant, occasionally repeat a mantra, sing a lot, meditate, but usually while engrossed in other activities. I have too much of a “monkey mind” just to sit, and have too much arthritis to get in the lotus position. In my office here I have my grandfathers crucifix; Buddha prayer flags;a beautiful pen and ink of the madonna; a statue of Athena from Crete; 3 drums, a medicine bag with hair from a white buffalo; a picture of the egyptian goddess Nut; a Navaho wedding jar; some sweet grass from Montana; and a large collection of books. Yes, I do have a bible, I do not worship or idolize any of these possesions, I just enjoy them. They remind me of places I have been, and people I have met. I believe in God, the message of Jesus, karma, and that all souls return Home when we lay down our bodies. I do not believe in the concept of a devil or hell. There is surely evil in this world, but it does not come from God or a Satan, it is caused by the choices of human beings. I wont repeat my many paths thing. I believe that we are spirits having a human experience, not the other way around. I believe that all religions are created by man. God doesn’t need to glorify Himself. If I am correct at assuming your belief that Jesus is the only God incarnate to have been on the earth, and He did not write the texts of the bible, so therefore it had to be written by plain old human beings. Even inspired, we interpret data thru our own experiences. Thus the many views of the same events by the different apostles. Things that are true, can change. Truth cannot change. I believe that Truth is in the bible, I just don’t believe that all of it is true. Nor, do I believe that it is the only place where Truth is found, or that it is the only book God has “written”.
Why is God a HE?
Blessings around—
Pat

weezy says Comment posted on June 06th, 2007

Pat says: “There is surely evil in this world, but it does not come from God or a Satan, it is caused by the choices of human beings.”

Pat,
You are so correct, evil does not come from God and while Satan causes evil and tempts human beings, Humans do make choices to do and say the evil things that are in their hearts and minds. That is exactly what the verses I last wrote said.

The Bible is addressing, the sin/evil that is in the human heart. The Bible says that we are held accountable to God. The salvation message then is very Good News: there is evil in every human heart and everyone deserves death for their wrong choices. God made the rules, but God also made a way ( Jesus’ death on the cross) to escape the eternal death. He, Himself rescued us from ourselves and Satan and the death sentence.
So my question is, what do you do when you see the evil in yourself? Do you ever have angry thoughts, say unkind things, or as you say, “make wrong choices?” What do you do if/when you’ve caused evil by a choice you’ve made.

Perhaps you think you don’t have that problem. Well, can you always bless and forgive those that have wronged you or society? I have met folk that don’t seem to need help to forgive and bless other people that have done wrong to them. I can’t do that, it is not in me, there is no good in me, my heart is bad. I want revenge. I want people to pay for what they did wrong, but I don’t want consequences on me for the evil that comes out of my heart.

I have contributed to the evil in this world because of my choices to be hateful and bitter and unkind to others, not to mention prideful and self-centered. I am stuck, I have no way out. I’m in a box. I don’t have the ability to do right, nor often do I even want to do what is right. So what do I do? That is where the Bible comes in. It says that though God is judge, He provided an attorney that took my sentence and proclaims me in right standing with God. He gives me a new heart and frees me from the prison of self that I am in.

[You can point to folk that say they believe what I am saying and live hypocritical and even evil lives. In a sense that is a detour and for another discussion, but I just want you to know that the focus needs to not be on people who don't match up or on ourselves and what we do, but on the LORD JESUS and HIS WORD—that's what makes the difference.]

P. S. God is not a man. He is Spirit.—God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

Pat says Comment posted on June 08th, 2007

Dear Weezy:
Your question is a good one, and my answer is very deep, but I will try to put into language what I feel.
“Pat,
I have followed your conversation with great interest. There is one thing I do not understand. What do you do with the fact that you are a sinner?

So my question is, what do you do when you see the evil in yourself? Do you ever have angry thoughts, say unkind things, or as you say, “make wrong choices?” What do you do if/when you’ve caused evil by a choice you’ve made.”

I do not think of myself as a “sinner” in the biblical sense. That is not to say I have not done wrong. My sense of “sinner” is heavy and ladened with guilt and shame. I spent all the years I am going to beating myself up over the ideals of others. Rather than focus on sinning, I now prefer to put my attention on “child of God”, or in my words, the Divine within.

A few years ago I started to pay attention to how many of my thoughts and actions were a result of my unconscious perceptions and beliefs. Ask, and it shall be given—-I started to consciously meet my unknown self. When I jumped (or was pushed) into the underworld of my own psyche, I found many fears and beliefs that were formed in childhood, and no longer served me. It was these fears etc, that caused me to talk and act in ways that were not praise worthy. I found them, examined them, and started paying attention to them, and when I would revert back to them in my behavior. Being aware helps to minimize, but it is a long process to eliminate survival methods of a lifetime. And, just as I am confident that “that one is gone” —-it taps me on the other shoulder
I believe that the only way to change the world, and elevate humanity is to change myself. I hesitate to call myself evil, but the potential for evil is certainly within me. I have been lucky not to have met the circumstances that would bring it out. Do I deal with anger? Frequently, just hearing the president talking on the news will put me on the moon. I realized that this much anger was contributing to the problem. Now I say the mantra: “may the truth be known; may the truth be known; may the truth be known” and it dissapates that charged energy. What do I do if I cause harm to myself or others? I try to find forgiveness. Forgiveness, rather of self, or of others is an arduous task, and you won’t like it till it’s over.
Just as you turn to the Bible for help and guidance, I turn to other esoteric texts and practices. Remember, it is all the same airport.
Blessings:
Pat

jen-o says Comment posted on June 09th, 2007

pat,
what do you mean when you say: “it’s all the same airport”?… i do not understand this analogy… so what if it’s the same airport… the airplanes can be headed toward different destinations…
please clarify…
shalom,
jen-o

Pat says Comment posted on June 10th, 2007

Jeno:

” so what if it’s the same airport… the airplanes can be headed toward different destinations…”

Not if their final destination is the SAME airport. There are many runways, to only one airport.

jen-o says Comment posted on June 10th, 2007

huh?
the final destination is an airport??
what kind of final destination is that?

an airport is just a preliminary step people take to get to a real destination… it’s a means, not an ends… i don’t know of anyone who travels with the goal of getting to an airport as their final destination… people travel all over the world and use airports as a way to get places, but no one wants to stay at an airport…

surely, you are not comparing God to an airport…

Pat says Comment posted on June 11th, 2007

Dear Jen-o:

Obviously, you and I have radically different ways of thinking. You are very literal, black/white, and analize each word. I tend to think more metaphorically, looking for a symbolic ordeeper meaning. I think my first word was WHY? We are basically “wired” differently. Neither right nor wrong, but difficult to understand one another. We seem to revert to nit-picking, and banter back and forth, not accomplishing our goal. Which makes me ask myself what is my goal for being here?
At first I had a “neener, neener” attitude. Truthfully, your beliefs of exclusivity and agressive assertions press my buttons. I was forced to examine my live and let live mentality. I had no respect for your convictions, but yet was demanding that you respect mine. A bit of incongruancy here, my thinking was definetly out of balance internally. Somewhere along the line of all our many posts I had a lightbulb moment. I was finally able to accept that your doctrinal conclusions were as valid to you as mine are to me. Sounds like a duh moment, but it was for me a mother may I giant step. I have found tolerance(not approval) in this area(not ALL areas).

My intent now is to understand why, not what. Why and how do you come to your conclusions. Why do you belive so totally in the bible as the only word of Truth? Why are your intrepretations literal? What is your mission? What gives you the drive to proselytize to non believers? Why do you admonish dissimilar positions?

And, yes, surely I compared heaven(not God specifically) to an airport. I also compared spiritual sentiments to a brownie recipe for heaven’s sake!

Continued Blessings
Pat

jen-o says Comment posted on June 11th, 2007

dear pat,
um, i realized that you were trying to create a metaphor… that is why i originally referred to it as an analogy and later mentioned the attempted “comparison” between God and an airport… i didn’t take your words literally; i was questioning the metaphor itself…

i actually love metaphors… i just don’t think that a metaphor that compares God or heaven to an airport is very on point…

a metaphor is suppose to compare points of resemblance between two things; the two things being compared should share common attributes…
my question is: how is heaven like an airport?
i just do not see any resemblance between the two…

i am not trying to be “nitpicky”… it’s true that i am very analytical, but for the most part, i have tried to look at the big picture when discussing things of a philosophical nature… however, i do think it is necessary to use details when discussing this big picture… perhaps, this is what rubs you the wrong way…

i am not sure what you mean by “beliefs of exclusivity”… i do not think in terms of “exclusivity”… i am not excluding anyone from anything…

nor do i understand what you mean by “aggressive assertions”… i may be assertive, straightforward, and outspoken… but i do not see how i have been aggressive toward you or others….

i think you have a lot of misconceptions about me… but, selah… i cannot be concerned about what other people think about me… i am just a small cog in the machinery of life so what difference does it make if people have positive or negative opinions about me… there are much more important things in life…

shalom,
jen-o

Pat says Comment posted on June 11th, 2007

Dear Jen-o:
To clarify:
Other than I think you are more of a literal thinker than I, the rest of my note was meant to be generalized not specific. A belief of exclusivity is the belief that Jesus is the ONLY way to God, the only runway, no Jesus, no salvation. All other belief systems are false, I will perish in hell, along with anyone else who does not repent and convert, time is running out. All discordant scriptures are rubbish, fairytales , of the devil. These are aggressive assertions or opinions.
And peace to you
p

jen-o says Comment posted on June 11th, 2007

dear pat,
i didn’t write the book!… i just believe it…
but, why do you call me “aggressive” for repeating what the bible says?
shalom,
jen-o

p.s. i do feel this is such an apropos example of how christians will be persecuted for standing up for what they believe… afterall, if you call my assertions (speech) aggressive, then it will not be such a big leap to call my speech “hateful”… and “hate speech”, as we all know, is a crime… so, i will be labeled a “hate speech” criminal for repeating what the bible says…

Joan H says Comment posted on June 12th, 2007

I feel like i am listening to a debate between democrats and republicans… Yikes… that alwys gives me chest pain!!I feel like i should be a moderator like Wolf Blitzer.. and as i pray about it, I hear… the truth… keep the main thing the main thing… Anyhow it is a difficult debate, as one side really doesn’t believe the bible, the other side really believes every word of the bible… one side doens’t believe they are sinners , the other side recognizes that even if they utter a lie or have hateful thoughts, they are sinners…one side believes that all roads lead to heaven… the other side believes that only confession of sins and belief in Jesus as our saviour leads us to heaven… one side doens’t belevie there is a hell, the other side knows there is a hell and that our sins will be judged… one side searches and searches and never really finds peace, just keeps thinking and discussing…. and the other side knows for sure what they believe mainly in faith… but they know where they will spend eternity and are quite jubilant and want to tell everyone they know about that and have them also believe in Jesus so they can go to heaven also!!
So where are we? Do you believe the bible as the word of God inspired and true? Do you believe you are a sinner and need to repent? Do you beleive that only thru the blood of Jesus and believing in Jesus that you will earn the right to be called a child of God and thru Jesus blood
“deserve ” Heaven….. Open you mind to these things.. and pray that God will come into your heart.. We many of us at this site have gone other paths and came back… God kept tugging at our hearts until we just couldn’t ignore the message… and then we were born again, and in happiness we want to invite all to share with us!! Praise you JESUS and thank you!!

Scott L. says Comment posted on June 12th, 2007

Joan, if you could see my face you know I am laughing kindly at your comment. Your words are true, we could go on and on with this debate.
We as believers know that Gods word is true, because we answered the call and by his promise has given us his spirit to know him and to know the truth, and we made a choice by faith to believe it.
But to those who have, and are rejecting this message of simple salvation through the work of Jesus, they are perishing.
We were told to go out into the nations and make disciples of all men (and women). And if they rejected the message, kick the dust from our feet and move on, at least we planted the seed. So we keep on prayin and hopefully that seed will take root and we will see them in heaven.

Like I told Pat, we can’t save anybody.

But I have to admit, the dialogue has been quite rewarding to me. Pat’s comments have strengthend what I believe. Jen-o has brought to her postings some good info and insperation, and yea you have been somewhat of a moderator.
So, lets keep on praying for one another, and all those who post a comment, for we all are different and have something to contribute.

So look up our redemption draws nigh.

Pat says Comment posted on June 12th, 2007

Dear sweet Joan, aka” Wolf”:

Religion and politics, ya gotta just love it. You are right, this thread has been argued and debated to it’s expiration. All the breath is out of it. Only one thing I would differ with you: “Open you mind to these things.. ” …I believe all things are possible. The closed mind is not in my resume`. I have said all all along: believe what you believe and live it to the best of your ability. The “republicans” did not always respond in kind. What matters most isn’t what others see in you, it’s what you see in yourself.
We have debated that which cannot be proven. Neither can offer indisputable validation, we can only express that which we have faith in, and believe to be true. Finance your faith, not your fears.

“Out beyond ideas of
right doing and wrong doing,
there is a field.
I’ll meet you there.”

~ Rumi

I’ll meet you there. No judgment.No fear. No right. No wrong. No black .No white. No up. No down. Just a place where minds are opened wide and the ability to understand ideas outside of our box is welcomed .

Shlama,
Pat

jen-o says Comment posted on June 13th, 2007

dear pat,
i think that it is futile to expect christians to welcome everything, tolerate everything, accept everything, acquiesce to everything, open our minds wide to everything, etc. etc.
it’s just not gonna happen…
because we believe the bible and measure everything by the Word of God…

it’s not that we don’t understand ideas “outside” of what you call “our box”… it’s that we reject these ideas because they are antibiblical…

(personally, even if i were not a christian, i would not open my mind wide to everything… it’s just plain dangerous not to discern differences…)

shalom,
jen-o

Linda says Comment posted on June 16th, 2007

re: “What matters most isn’t what others see in you, it’s what you see in yourself.”
What matters most is what GOD sees in us through the sacred blood of Christ Jesus.
Christians gratefully accepting all that Christ Jesus accomplished on the cross (not just for us but for the entire world) are not aggressive assertions or opinions.
Would we be accused of a hate crime if we knew of an alternative fuel which could be used in all cars & only costs $0.39/gal and we tried to tell
people how they could get it? No, ‘cuz satan doesn’t care about that!
It is not a matter of disagreement among religions; no other religions get
attacked like Christians & Jews….that’s because they’re the source of truth
& satan wants to discredit the truth, putting people at risk for eternity.
AND the biggest threat people face today is political correctness.
Snap out of it before sharia becomes the law of our land.

Scott L. says Comment posted on June 17th, 2007

Linda

Your quite right. Who knows what religion the anti-chist will bring in.

Linda says Comment posted on September 27th, 2007

FYI:
From the Center For Moral Clarity:

Senate Approves Hate-Crimes Legislation!
Today, the U.S. Senate agreed by voice vote to attach the hate-crimes provision to a pending defense authorization bill that designates billions of federal dollars to the Defense Department and the Iraq war. This is a tremendous disappointment, but the battle for our free speech isn’t over yet.

President George W. Bush pledged to veto the military spending bill if it included this restriction on liberty. Please contact President Bush TODAY and ask him to preserve our right to share the Gospel without fear of arrest and prosecution. Those who want to silence Christians from speaking the truth are going the extra mile on this one; what are you doing to protect religious liberty? Please write President Bush @:

http://capwiz.com/cmc/issues/alert/?alertid=9257681&type=PR

Remnant says Comment posted on September 28th, 2007

For a full story of the kennedy and smith amendment

see Kennedy ‘humiliates’ soldiers to further homosexual rights

at http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57872

In Messiah
Remnant

jen-o says Comment posted on September 29th, 2007

let me re-word this…

today the senate approved legislation that makes it legal to persecute bible believing christians…

today the senate passed legislation that would give the government the ability to monitor its citizens speech…

today the senate agreed that there are words that are acceptable, and words that are not… there are words that they just will not allow to be spoken in this country…

today the senate passed legislation that would ban certain words of the bible…

today, free speech died…

further, today the senate decided that certain self-evident truths weren’t really so self-evident afterall… and that “all men are created equal” wasn’t good enough… no, some men are more equal than others… some men should be given additional rights… even if those additional rights infringe upon the rights of other…

today, the senate has decided that some men will be given MORE rights and some men will be given LESS rights…

and we think that we live in a free country… but our freedoms are being eroded daily… step be step, inch by inch… until people will think nothing of getting a “chip” to buy and sell… i mean, what’s the difference, they already have several “chip numbers” now (credit cards, debit cards, etc.)… why not just put your financial info all in one place, and what better place to put it than under your skin (there is identity theft, you know)…

and the american people sleep on, dreaming of cars and houses and big screen Tvs…

Remnant says Comment posted on September 29th, 2007

One Nation under any gods except the most high G_D

When our Supreme Court removed Prayer from our schools in 1963, and then ten years later gave society the “right’ to sacrifice their unborn upon the altar of molech, they also revealed that The United States of America was not a “christian” nation. The mask was off and Religious homage to our Creator was removed and the era of secular humanism came to full power.

In 2003 this same Supreme Court, struck down a Texas state law that banned private consensual sex between adults of the same sex. Thus reversing a ruling from 17 years earlier that said states could punish homosexuals, for what such laws historically called deviant sex.

Now in 2007, we see an concentrated effort in our Senate and Congress to control certain groups from voicing their objections to anti Biblical behavior, calling it Hate Speech and at it’s most extreme Hate Thoughts.

The year of 2007 also brings in a Senator using a koran instead of a Bible to take His oath of office, we also saw an Imam on February 3rd leading the Democrats in prayer of conversion essentially asking allah to assist in converting the party members to Islam.

That same year we had a hindu open the Senate Session in prayer, there by setting a precedent for any devil worshiping satanist to demand the right to do the same.

How long will it be, before we see a member of the church of satan opening the Senate in prayer, while members of both the House and Senate lay their hands upon the witches or satanic bible, to take their oath of office.

The real haters in this country, are the ones pushing these agendas, they hate G_D, His Word, and those of us that believe, and live by what His Word says. They want to be free to force their beliefs upon everyone. While making it a crime for those who oppose them to speak freely.

As Jen-o just stated, free speech has died along with common sense!

Over the last 44 years we have seen the moral failing of our government, our society, and sadly many of our “churches” are following right along with them!

In Messiah
Remnant

Linda says Comment posted on September 29th, 2007

Remnant & Jen-o,
My dear brother & sister in the LORD, the picture painted in both your posts is such a sad one, but a true one; & I’m glad you both put it out there just the way it is for others to read & digest. Hopefully, there will be some readers who were unaware of course our country is on & become more grounded in our LORD.
At this point I don’t if we should pray for a revival or a resuscitation of our nation (maybe both).
Even though there are those who hate us for our belief in G-D & HIS Word, we must always remember that the joy of our LORD is our strength; & we must continue to do the things that we know are pleasing to HIM.
May HE who sent our LORD bless you all.